026. Rabbi Amichai Lau-Lavie: Community, Ritual, and Creativity

[00:00:00] The text itself that Saturday morning was from the book of Genesis was the story of Joseph and his brothers and dreams and whoa

[00:00:08] Human trafficking interesting stuff people come up and down to bless and interact the rabbis

[00:00:15] Explain, sermon eyes, but for the most part this hour-long ceremonial storytelling was dull

[00:00:23] And I'm being kind and I sat there and thought to myself

[00:00:27] What's wrong with this picture right Saturday morning? You got the Jews are in the pews

[00:00:31] I got prime time and there's a ceremony where we're telling scripture and it's not engaging and this very story of Joseph is being

[00:00:41] Performed on the stage on Broadway as a musical right now on a Saturday matinee

[00:00:47] And people are paying a hundred bucks to see it

[00:00:50] I'm Eran Jor and this is remake a podcast about design systems and society in each episode

[00:00:57] I talked to someone who's trying to change our lives for the better in some meaningful way

[00:01:02] With a through a new product new venture or a new way of looking at the world

[00:01:06] And I try to understand how they came to it. What makes them tick and what we can learn from them

[00:01:13] Rabbi Amichai Laulavie is an Israeli-born Jewish educator writer and performance artist

[00:01:20] He's the creator of storytelling incorporated and the founding spiritual leader of lab show in New York City an

[00:01:28] Artist-driven everybody friendly

[00:01:30] God optional pop up experimental community for sacred Jewish gatherings

[00:01:37] Amichai is a member of the global justice fellowship of the American Jewish World Service a

[00:01:43] Founding member of the Jewish Emergent Network

[00:01:46] Serves on the leadership council of the New York Jewish agenda

[00:01:50] The advisory council of the International School for Peace a refugee support project in Greece a

[00:01:57] member of the advisory council for the Institute for Jewish spirituality and is a faculty member of the reboot network

[00:02:06] Through all his endeavors he brings a creative inclusive and vital energy to Jewish practice and Jewish life

[00:02:15] Today we talk about how the Jewish concept of the set table served both as a happy early memory and as an organizing principle for his later work

[00:02:25] How COVID-19 made rituals and online communities more important than ever

[00:02:30] His orthodox roots as the scion of an ancient and respected rabbinical dynasty and his journey of self discovery through theater drag and art

[00:02:40] His creation of storytelling a way to bring to life the ancient ritual of the reading of the Torah and the Maven method

[00:02:48] He developed to spread the practice further

[00:02:51] The emergence of lab show in the community around it and

[00:02:54] The power of spiritual design and a well-designed practice in transforming our lives and our communities for the better

[00:03:03] I have long believed that one of the most promising avenues to apply design skills and creativity to

[00:03:10] In designing communities social rituals and spiritual practice that suits the modern world

[00:03:16] And as such there's no one I can think of that exemplifies this better than Rabbi Ami chai lau levi

[00:03:23] I think this conversation which is full of wisdom and fun is a great introduction to

[00:03:30] Exactly the type of spiritual design

[00:03:32] We need to see more of so let's jump right in with Rabbi Ami chai lau levi

[00:03:40] All right, I'm sitting here across the screen from Rabbi Ami chai lau levi. I'm a hi welcome to the podcast

[00:03:47] Thank you Iran wonderful to be with you in the same virtual space

[00:03:51] Yeah

[00:03:52] The kind of mandatory question these days because of COVID and everything that's happening

[00:03:57] I wanted to know you're back in New York now, but how did you experience COVID?

[00:04:04] first personally what was going on and then in terms of your

[00:04:10] In terms of your work in terms of your congregation from where I'm sitting right now in my home in Harlem

[00:04:15] I'm looking at this really big mulberry tree that has become very dear to me and

[00:04:21] possibly me to her and so

[00:04:24] COVID really got me to be

[00:04:27] not just at home, but also in my body and

[00:04:30] present in my

[00:04:32] Presence in a deep way so that nature became very important. I'm very lucky to have a backyard

[00:04:38] So both really being very attuned to the subtle changes of the seasons

[00:04:45] doing gardening both within my house and outside and

[00:04:49] nurturing and nourishing my sense of well-being and finding the

[00:04:56] Practices that I already have

[00:04:59] So critical and my discipline more necessary for my morning meditation and yoga

[00:05:04] my version of prayer deepened in a deep way and

[00:05:09] What I did as soon as social isolation quarantine began on March 15th, 2020. I started an online

[00:05:19] Meditation practice for my community which we call the daily Sal Spa

[00:05:23] So that just to get people connected to each other to feel less isolated to have the ability to breathe

[00:05:30] To recycle some of the Jewish

[00:05:33] Spiritual tools in a way that will make sense to a very wide array of people. So the daily soul spa started off as a 30-minute

[00:05:42] meditation

[00:05:44] poetry prayer mode that ran for 120 days straight

[00:05:50] That I ran every day at 3 p.m

[00:05:52] So it was taking the same principles that we already have the tools to not freak out and

[00:05:58] And translate them into the virtual it was extremely grounding and helpful

[00:06:04] For me and for the many hundreds of people who joined us over those many days

[00:06:08] And we now continue with the daily soul spa. We took it down to three days a week about a year ago

[00:06:15] Whatever one loses track of time. So that was just one of the many ways in which sanity was preserved

[00:06:21] Yeah, and if I'm not mistaken you're doing some online

[00:06:25] Rituals and practices before is as part of experimentation. Am I right about that this kind of yes, yeah, I've been intrigued by

[00:06:33] the accessibility virtual learning and ritual and connection for many years now and

[00:06:41] When COVID began in some way lab show my community, we were already poised to just take it to the next level

[00:06:48] No

[00:06:49] Yeah, so that's very lucky and I was interested to hear about the meditation aspect. So I took a

[00:06:57] seminar

[00:06:58] In Tel Aviv University with Tomer Pelsik. Oh, I don't know if you know the name. Sure. He's a dear friend

[00:07:04] Okay, great. So he did a seminar on Jewish meditation

[00:07:08] It was actually a seminar about Jewish meditation with Buddhist meditation

[00:07:12] So it was him and Karen Arbel. She taught the Buddha side and he taught the Jewish side

[00:07:17] Fantastic and it was phenomenal. So do you approach it from a let's Jewish practice. Do you approach it from a

[00:07:25] Whatever works angle? How did you?

[00:07:30] Incorporate that that's a great question. I will say and Tomer if you're listening, I have your book

[00:07:35] I really started it with a new book. He has a new book now. Yeah, just just today. I heard that he put a new book out

[00:07:42] Yeah, but amazing. It's very prolific. Look, I'll say two things about it first of all my approach in general

[00:07:48] to all the ways in which I

[00:07:51] embody and

[00:07:54] Embed Jewish practices in my life. The bottom line is not Jewish. The bottom line is human

[00:08:01] Jewish is a tool in the service of humanity. That is the same in my opinion for all religions and all paths

[00:08:09] The tap is there to bring us water

[00:08:14] It's not about the tap

[00:08:16] So whether that is Shabbat or whether that is Yom Kippur

[00:08:19] Whether that is a morning meditation or how we sit shiva for a loved one

[00:08:24] These are tools that we are very fortunate to have inherited

[00:08:29] Having been perfected for thousands of years by practitioners of the spirit who found ways as we keep finding ways

[00:08:37] To be closer to ourselves and to each other and to whatever mystery is

[00:08:42] So for me the bottom line is not to do something Jewish for the sake of doing something Jewish and

[00:08:47] Perpetuating or preserving Jewish. I'm doing it because there's some good stuff here. There's some good Intel

[00:08:53] There's some good tools. There's some good technologies

[00:08:56] There are some good and meaningful

[00:08:58] Mythologies that I feel connected to because in this lifetime, this is the mother tongue that I was born into

[00:09:05] Meditation and Tommy is a much better teacher of that than I is a tool that is used in every culture

[00:09:12] To have us be more present more focused more helpful to ourselves and to each other

[00:09:19] I found over the years my path into the meditative contemplative path not through the Jewish

[00:09:27] direction through vipassana through Zen and

[00:09:31] Eventually found my way into an integration where through using some Jewish practices some Jewish liturgy

[00:09:39] connecting the path of meditation to the Jewish life cycle and

[00:09:43] At the end of the day breath is breath

[00:09:46] Hmm and focus is focus so the fusion or the hybrid is really where I find it most

[00:09:53] No

[00:09:54] Interesting most of my meditation background comes from

[00:09:58] Buddhism and even a very specific kind of Buddhism, which is the kind of taravada Buddhist tradition

[00:10:03] But then you encounter Zen and you encounter Tibetan practices that work and for me. It's all about

[00:10:11] Getting to know your mind and running experiments and seeing what works and so I

[00:10:16] Think we're ready now to start our journey

[00:10:18] Which we usually start with this

[00:10:22] biographical opener question, which is what's something

[00:10:26] You've learned in childhood that still drives you today and still with you today. What a wonderful question

[00:10:33] This feels very tangential and trivial and very gay and I'll own all of them

[00:10:39] I grew up in an orthodox home in Israel very religious and

[00:10:44] social home and I would say one of the

[00:10:48] Highlights of the week for sure was Shabbat

[00:10:52] Hmm and the Shabbat table sitting around the Sabbath table on Friday night and on Saturday for lunch

[00:10:58] Was not only the key social moment where people will come together family neighbors friends

[00:11:04] because during the week it's much more random but

[00:11:08] the gastro-judaic experience of food being a central element of socialization and

[00:11:15] Theology perhaps even spirituality in a deeper way and the aesthetics of the table my mother who is of British origin

[00:11:25] brought really good silver and the nice linens and the good plates and

[00:11:30] My job as a child was to help with a flower arrangement and to help set the table

[00:11:36] So I have this innate memory that I still enjoy today to host

[00:11:42] To have a table that is a beautiful table with the people around the table

[00:11:46] That is curated not just as far as the dishes but also the conversation and the topics and

[00:11:53] I think the notion of the table

[00:11:56] is

[00:11:58] such an important feature of

[00:12:01] My Jewish upbringing and my Jewish life

[00:12:04] That at my home the table is where we come together and

[00:12:08] I'm looking outside my window right now at my outside round table in the garden where

[00:12:13] First thing I did when I cut back from Israel just a few days ago

[00:12:16] I got back on Thursday morning and by Friday evening. I hosted a dinner party

[00:12:21] Because that's how you come back home

[00:12:24] Yeah, so I would so I would really will take this notion of the table setting and I can be of course

[00:12:32] Metaphilosophical about it and say that the key

[00:12:35] Text of Jewish law

[00:12:38] For better and for worse that is from the 16th century is known as

[00:12:43] Shulchanaruch the set table right by Yosef Karo who wrote this book

[00:12:47] Which is really the a to z of how to live your life Jewishly

[00:12:51] I use the metaphor of the set table the sort of grounding principle of Jewish life. That's interesting

[00:12:57] So talk more about that idea of the set table because I'm definitely not familiar with that enough

[00:13:03] So there's a I am familiar with I guess the closest thing that I can come up to this is the Passover table

[00:13:11] right where you have

[00:13:14] Specific dishes served in a specific way eaten in a specific order

[00:13:19] With certain blessings and then also woven with the story of Passover. So

[00:13:26] Is that a good metaphor? Is there more to it than that?

[00:13:30] It's a perfect metaphor

[00:13:32] I think what's so interesting if you think about the Sabbath table and the Passover table and I'll

[00:13:38] Extended or expanded beyond the Jewish context to let's say the Christian context is

[00:13:44] That the evolution of the human experience of the sacred over the last

[00:13:50] 2000 plus years includes a decentralization

[00:13:55] from a temple

[00:13:57] Where there is an altar and on the altar an animal is sacrificed or grains and that is where God resides and that's where the

[00:14:07] Technicians of the sacred officiate the priests and

[00:14:11] That's where you come to eat and that's where you come to be in the presence of the sacred

[00:14:18] That's the miss back

[00:14:19] That's the altar that you read about extensively in the Bible that was part of the pagan Semitic

[00:14:24] Traditions of the Near East that is very much central to many of the Mayan or the at-stack ways

[00:14:30] That in many ways is what brings people together

[00:14:34] Mmm. Now what happened in the Jewish?

[00:14:39] Historical and mythic landscape is that the temple ceased to exist first from a functional point of view

[00:14:46] We just became a bureaucratic

[00:14:48] Center of religious life that was not of resonance to many Jews

[00:14:53] Including young Jesus who walks into the temple in Jerusalem and says what the hell is this and knocks over the tables of the money

[00:15:00] lenders and and offers an alternative to that religious bureaucracy of

[00:15:06] proximity to the sacred and later on within several decades the temple is destroyed by the Romans and

[00:15:13] The religious leadership the Jews the early Christians come up with an alternative

[00:15:19] It isn't a singular altar in a singular place called Jerusalem every house of worship and every home

[00:15:27] Contains an altar

[00:15:29] Mmm. And if it's in the church then the altar is where communion happens and the blood and the bread is

[00:15:37] Consumption of the sacred in the Jewish home the table is where you sanctify the wine

[00:15:43] Where you cut the bread where you come together as a community to have communion

[00:15:49] So the evolution of religious practice from animal sacrifice to whatever brisket

[00:15:56] To sharing bread in a ritual sense is a very important evolution

[00:16:02] Yeah, and the design principles that make a Passover table or a or an Easter

[00:16:09] feast Muslim iftar a

[00:16:12] Holy meal by any tradition and again, I'll speak about the tradition. I know which is the Jewish

[00:16:18] The table is the place where the sacred social contract is

[00:16:25] constantly renewed

[00:16:27] Mmm, and the rituals matter

[00:16:30] Right, it matters that you start off with the first course and you go to soup and if you ask Kenazi

[00:16:35] There's gefilte fish and if you're sardine

[00:16:38] Etc. It matters that these are the ritual foods

[00:16:40] It matters that these are the plates that you take out every year for Passover

[00:16:45] It matters that these are the songs the wisdom of our ancestors to provide these blueprints

[00:16:52] for

[00:16:54] historical and mythic narratives that are

[00:16:57] Grounded in the consumption of food

[00:17:01] Is profound yeah, that's so much you unpack there because it's a ritual. It's a

[00:17:07] well-designed ritual it ties with our basic bodily needs and our basic

[00:17:14] Sensations it's communal

[00:17:17] Right, it's it you can't you don't usually set the table for yourself

[00:17:21] You set it for a group of people which is something that's very Jewish and so

[00:17:27] It sounds because you later there's many things that you rebelled against the young man

[00:17:33] It sounds like there was before that a sense of really loving something that was part of that life

[00:17:40] Would is that a yeah 100% I spent a great deal of time and energy

[00:17:46] rebelling against the Orthodox

[00:17:48] Zionist patriarchal

[00:17:53] Loving home I grew up with to find my own way. I came out as queer and my teens

[00:18:00] Realized that Jewish law as it is verbatim is a challenge to say the least and found other ways to

[00:18:08] question my values vis-a-vis those of the home and society I grew up with and

[00:18:13] The process of not throwing the baby with a bathwater but figuring out what matters and what kindles me and what I want to

[00:18:22] tweak and mix and match to be of relevance continues to evolve my Shabbat is not exactly that of

[00:18:30] My my

[00:18:32] Orthodox family in Israel, but so much is the same and I just want to say something you were talking about setting the table

[00:18:37] one of the ways that I stayed both

[00:18:40] sane and am used during the first few months of

[00:18:44] COVID I live alone in my home and Harlem my children are elsewhere in Manhattan

[00:18:49] My mother is in Israel, but I would set the table for myself every night with an

[00:18:56] apkin and

[00:18:58] I was like no, we're not gonna sit in front of the computer

[00:19:01] I mean, maybe I'll see if on the computer

[00:19:03] I'll put the Mac on the on the dining room table, but you're gonna set you're gonna eat like a mensch

[00:19:09] Yeah, and then Shabbat I very quickly realized that a lot of people at home alone

[00:19:14] And we can't eat together. We can't have Shabbat dinner together

[00:19:17] So we created this thing called Shabbasics, which was basically a half hour Friday night zoom

[00:19:24] Where we got people

[00:19:26] Wherever they were at home light candles in front of the screens

[00:19:30] Raise a glass of wine break some bread share what's on their menu

[00:19:34] And then those who wanted stayed on for another hour to just eat together

[00:19:39] Across the screens so that the ritual of eating together on Shabbat is maintained. Yeah

[00:19:46] just for the sake of not being alone and

[00:19:49] it was

[00:19:50] sad and stunning and

[00:19:52] In many ways continues as COVID continues

[00:19:56] Yeah, we had COVID the first Passover was under quarantine

[00:20:02] Couldn't get away more than a hundred yards from your house and

[00:20:06] And very naturally everybody moved to zoom of course, we were gonna still do it

[00:20:11] It wasn't a question of not doing it. It was just a question of how to technologically see each other

[00:20:17] And I guess I was cuz I'm also a single man

[00:20:21] Then then I had my parents together my sister and her husband and their son together

[00:20:26] And they all had more fancy meals than I did but I had a bottle of wine and

[00:20:32] And we've shared the table this way and I think millions of people did it right like it's on pass

[00:20:37] Millions of course you're gonna do that. Of course, you're not gonna give up being together

[00:20:41] Time will tell and I'm sure sociologists are on it as we are still in COVID in various phases

[00:20:49] What will be the ramification of this acceleration of the virtual digital?

[00:20:55] creeping into our erotic lives into our ritual lives into our

[00:21:02] Every aspect of our lives for better and for worse and it's something that my team and I

[00:21:08] Extremely interested by we're now planning the next season of the high holy days

[00:21:12] We usually have three thousand people in person and for the last last year was

[00:21:19] Completely virtual this year. We're going for a hybrid, but we're trying to think what does it look like moving forward?

[00:21:24] What is it gonna look like for our children who are now teens and younger who are?

[00:21:30] Digital natives, but also now scarred by this

[00:21:34] Experience so the design of our ritual life and social life thinking

[00:21:40] Into the future with a combination of virtual and in-person

[00:21:44] I dare say this is gonna be part of who we are for the rest of our lives

[00:21:48] Yeah, that's that seems reasonable. I wonder if you've seen this as this special news

[00:21:53] Netflix special from Bo Burnham called inside and now he's a young comedian who also a musician and he is very successful

[00:22:02] Before COVID he was I started on YouTube and then recently came out with this a Netflix special describing his life

[00:22:09] Locked inside and he's deteriorating

[00:22:12] Mental health and still finding humor about it

[00:22:15] He and he has a song about

[00:22:17] Face timing with his mom and and the song about sexting and the song about just like how this

[00:22:22] Weird deer that we've all had and and it's it's wonderful. It's so insightful. It's so funny

[00:22:28] I and I think I'll check it out. Thank you captures this last year, but you had your own part of your

[00:22:34] Self-discovery and part of leaving that house

[00:22:37] And it's a very a very ancient

[00:22:40] Rubinical dynasty that you come from and still to this day the chief rabbi of Israel today

[00:22:46] Right is

[00:22:48] Your first cousin and you had an uncle that was a previous chief rabbi

[00:22:53] And by the way as I was researching this I found out that Benny Lau is also related to you who's he's my brother

[00:23:00] Yeah, yeah, brother and someone I've been following for a long time with his 929 project

[00:23:06] and in various points writing very sensible things in the name of Judaism on politics and

[00:23:13] Great voice super important voice and coming from those roots of both really strong Orthodox rabbis

[00:23:20] And then discovering yourself through theater and through through art and through drag. Tell me more about that. That's

[00:23:27] It sounds like a it sounds like this a rush of

[00:23:32] Experimentation and as designers really like experimentation

[00:23:35] We like to emerge from something and try many different things so where is that is that a

[00:23:41] Process of self-discovery that I would love to hear more about that

[00:23:45] Sure, it's absolutely a process that

[00:23:48] It's ongoing

[00:23:49] I can say that a very pivotal moment in my memory that you will relate to because of our shared Israeli

[00:23:55] legacy and ancestry and

[00:23:57] And relevance in

[00:23:59] 1995 I was living in Jerusalem. I was involved in various

[00:24:04] Education and cultural theater. I was interested in storytelling in some aspect and

[00:24:09] Education looking I was in my mid 20s and there was a night where the Israeli Prime Minister Yitzhak Rabin was murdered

[00:24:16] assassinated by a young Jewish man who came from a very

[00:24:21] similar background to mind a religious Zionist Orthodox background and he basically

[00:24:26] claimed his right to do what he did

[00:24:30] by God and by

[00:24:32] Scripture and to prevent Yitzhak Rabin from

[00:24:36] Turning parts of the land of Israel to the Palestinians and to defending

[00:24:40] Jewish future by murdering a fellow Jew murdering a human being

[00:24:45] No, and I remember that night. I wrote a lot about it and the following days that happened

[00:24:51] Israel was in deep shock and

[00:24:54] for me what kept coming was the

[00:24:58] Narrative the legend the story of the master story of the binding of Isaac from the book of Genesis

[00:25:05] Where?

[00:25:06] Abraham here as a call in his head

[00:25:09] Attributed to God to bind his beloved child and offer him as a sacrifice to God and

[00:25:15] Abraham takes Yitzhak Isaac and binds him in at the last minute

[00:25:20] Places the kid with a lamb and here's a voice and that human sacrifice is

[00:25:27] Prevented and Isaac is traumatized to this day as are we his descendants

[00:25:33] But there's a moment of evolution a paradigm shift

[00:25:36] But when he got a meal killed Yitzhak Rabin all that I could think of was like and now

[00:25:42] The binding of Isaac was successful. This was the sequel here is a man

[00:25:48] Quoting these scriptures that the land belongs to us the children of Abraham not to them other children of Abraham and

[00:25:55] That God or rabbis or whatever said to him and he did it

[00:25:59] He followed a divine commandment and he came from a place of religious literacy knowledge and empowerment

[00:26:05] He felt empowered in the name of the myth and the story to do what he did and I remember thinking to myself

[00:26:11] I come from the same background. I have similar

[00:26:15] Privileges of knowing these scriptures and knowing these texts, but I'm taking them in a very different direction

[00:26:22] Which is humanitarian and liberal and progressive and peace-loving and not

[00:26:29] Fundamentalistic so it's my job like that of other people to combat you got a meal and his rabbis and

[00:26:36] comrades by

[00:26:38] Taking Judaism to another place equally legitimate, right? And I understood that my job is not to

[00:26:45] So much deal with the laws but with the stories to be a better storyteller to deeply examine

[00:26:52] What stories we are telling ourselves?

[00:26:54] And how we are telling those stories so we can educate future generations

[00:26:59] not to take the law into their own hands and to focus on these

[00:27:07] Narrow-minded fear-based trauma-driven narratives of us versus them and either or but find a

[00:27:15] Deeper and higher and kinder way of both in coexistence and humanity

[00:27:21] Serving us better so that night for me was a kind of I won't say a wake-up call

[00:27:26] But it was a very strong drive to focus on storytelling

[00:27:30] The metaphor that I use at the time was that if Judaism or Israeli

[00:27:35] Judaism is a car that's driving down the highway

[00:27:38] Way too far a speed and about to crash

[00:27:41] What you need to do is not change the color of the car

[00:27:45] What you need to do is figure out what's the fuel and who's driving it?

[00:27:48] Yeah, and that that those are the stories that contain the values that we live by

[00:27:55] So that for me was a decision to focus on the stories. I we are telling how we tell them that I want to be

[00:28:03] Working with Jewish storytelling that led me to theater that led me to theater that mixed the weekly

[00:28:10] Ceremony in every synagogue where we recite the Torah

[00:28:14] this

[00:28:16] constant rerun of scriptures and thinking how do we do a better job of challenging this bronze-age scripture with its

[00:28:25] Social problems such as

[00:28:27] homophobia and annihilation of the other and misogyny and

[00:28:32] Slavery and etc. How do we talk back to the text?

[00:28:36] So that led me to this theatrical exploration of

[00:28:40] Site-specific theater or the challenges the Jewish mythology and eventually that led me to drag because I

[00:28:47] as somebody who was exploring my sexuality and my my voice

[00:28:52] Found something very liberating in drag

[00:28:54] I could do and be and say things with a wig and with high heels and with this altered persona that I am I high felt

[00:29:03] discomfort saying and

[00:29:05] Over time that drag persona became scaffolding that was no longer necessary

[00:29:10] I was able to say the critical things. I wanted to say in my voice

[00:29:15] Yeah, and that led me eventually to ticking on the rabbinette without losing the sense of the theatrical and the and

[00:29:24] Storytelling is the core of the project here of reclamation and repair

[00:29:29] No, no, there's a lot to unpack there, but I think every

[00:29:33] Or I think many men can identify

[00:29:37] Themselves with feeling very restricted in a certain masculine role and feeling liberated

[00:29:44] if you're in a situation like in poor aim or in where you can explore and be free of it and

[00:29:50] Yeah, no, I think it's sounds like I would want to try that at some point

[00:29:54] but but from the context of going back to what you said about a rabbin's murder and

[00:30:00] the

[00:30:02] the Jewish niche so I have a I had a

[00:30:05] Professor in and my master is a lot more golling. I don't know if you know him. He also studies, you know him

[00:30:11] Okay, so he he said and he's in conversations with a lot of Jewish leaders

[00:30:16] From many many different sects many different types. He said specifically to the religious Zionists

[00:30:25] You came from the older generation you came from

[00:30:31] Western democracies and

[00:30:33] You were also religious and you found a way to balance both of these things like the civil rights

[00:30:40] The human rights of democracy values with the Judaism, but when you educated your kids

[00:30:47] You just took one side for granted. You just said oh, of course. Yeah, human rights. Oh, of course democracy

[00:30:55] the rights of the other and certain things that are obvious and

[00:30:59] But you emphasize a certain kind of religion without giving that background without giving that without emphasizing

[00:31:07] The democratic values and as a result you have a you have a generation

[00:31:12] I'm and I'm quoting him

[00:31:14] I don't know how true this is but where he claimed there is essentially a generation that had more moderate more

[00:31:21] Democratic parents

[00:31:23] But they themselves from morning till night just studied

[00:31:27] Pure scripture and religion and religious Zionist dogma without

[00:31:32] The rest of it without the civil side without the democracy side the right there the individual rights side

[00:31:39] Does that resonate with you or that does resonate look we're not we're in the middle of a very

[00:31:45] Very

[00:31:46] Complex moment where there is again a paradigm shift in what is Zionist and what is religious I

[00:31:56] to

[00:31:58] Completely believe that we are in the middle of a process that will be known historically as post patriarchy

[00:32:04] After thousands of years in which the West certainly the monotheistic traditions have revered the divine as

[00:32:11] Godhead that is male

[00:32:14] and revered males as the one to be holding the religious and

[00:32:19] political authority it's been a hundred years of

[00:32:24] Challenging that assumption

[00:32:25] Hundred years is not a long time in human history

[00:32:28] Right, so we're seeing a shift. We're seeing a shift as far as a women's leadership and LGBTQ

[00:32:35] Participation we're seeing a shift in the theology

[00:32:38] That the big old man on the beat with a beard on the throne is not necessarily what people think about with the divine

[00:32:44] We're seeing it in so many ways that we're just in the middle of

[00:32:49] Now that has impact on these patriarchal structures as far as hierarchy and as far as the dichotomies that we inherited

[00:32:58] they include the political reality of

[00:33:02] Jewish people in the land of Israel who are back in the land after thousands of years

[00:33:08] some of us with the old vision and some of us with other revisions and

[00:33:14] What I think is a historical invitation of deep mythic proportions to do right

[00:33:21] By this binary either or patriarchal Abrahamic structure and come up with a new paradigm now. That's hard changes hard

[00:33:29] mmm and

[00:33:31] PTSD as we now all like to talk about is a reality factor in Israel and in Palestine

[00:33:38] We are the descendants of people who

[00:33:41] Suffered the Nakba and suffered the Shoah the Holocaust my father was a Holocaust survivor

[00:33:46] My mother lived through the Holocaust. I have friends in Ramallah and Gaza and

[00:33:52] East and West Jerusalem whose parents and grandparents went through

[00:33:56] horrific atrocities in the 1940s

[00:33:59] Around the Nakba and after it's still alive

[00:34:03] So the react the response of religious Zionism to say you don't matter and it's all about us cause God says so in the Torah

[00:34:11] Okay, that's a legitimate response. It's grounded in history, but it's not helpful

[00:34:18] Right, and it's the same for our fundamentalist friends in Islam

[00:34:23] Well, we're seeing now in Israel that they're more younger people think goodness was saying what's the practical way for us to live and not kill each other and

[00:34:32] With all due respect to the scriptures we inherited

[00:34:34] What can we do about reinterpreting them differently and finding the sweet spot in between the religious Zionism I grew up with

[00:34:43] That is now represented in the Knesset by Itamar Ben-Gvir

[00:34:47] Hmm who is a racist thug?

[00:34:50] Yeah, I don't think we want to go down the rabbit hole of Israeli politics right now, right?

[00:34:55] I think there's a big there's there's a bigger question here

[00:34:58] There's the bigger question about how do we as human beings honor the traditions we come from

[00:35:06] Understand where they serve us understand where they fail us and do the delicate work of

[00:35:13] redesigning them to fit our shifting realities

[00:35:17] That is true for Americans right now. We're dealing with the horrific legacy of

[00:35:24] indigenous annihilation and slavery and racism

[00:35:28] That is a hundred percent part of being an American no matter who you are as an American

[00:35:34] Yeah, that process of reckoning of repair of reparation

[00:35:39] Is critical for the sake of a healthy future in this country. Otherwise, we're just recycling

[00:35:46] that same trauma

[00:35:48] and

[00:35:49] in some sectors in this country that is clear and that is being

[00:35:53] a commitment

[00:35:56] For a long term process of repair and in many other sectors. It is something that we're going to continue denying

[00:36:03] Right because change is hard and accountability and truth

[00:36:08] And reconciliation is hard

[00:36:11] That is true all over the world. It is certainly true in israel and palestine

[00:36:15] Where 63 children were killed in Gaza

[00:36:20] And two children were killed in israel and this latest skirmish

[00:36:24] And israel went back to business a day after

[00:36:27] Yeah, but the moment ben and jerry's threatened to not sell ice cream in the west bank

[00:36:33] Everybody's starting to talk about the occupation right there is a preference of people who suffer personal trauma

[00:36:40] or nations that go through

[00:36:43] generations long trauma

[00:36:45] to

[00:36:46] Not deal with it

[00:36:48] But the only way we will fix and there will be a paradigm shift is there will be repair

[00:36:53] Is it happening in germany to an extent? Is it happening in south africa?

[00:36:58] Somewhat it's required on a deep level. So my hope is that maybe not for every jew on the planet, but for more and more of us

[00:37:06] Taking the patriarchal legacy we inherited

[00:37:11] And customizing it to be egalitarian liberal

[00:37:16] queer friendly

[00:37:17] Earth friendly

[00:37:19] Radically relevant to who we are and who we are becoming

[00:37:23] Is the order of the day

[00:37:25] That's not everybody's cup of tea

[00:37:27] And hopefully it won't be a bloody conflict between us

[00:37:32] but there are

[00:37:34] Ways in which we have to be honest with who we are

[00:37:37] and

[00:37:38] That includes the understanding that there are people that includes my cousins and nephews and

[00:37:44] Close kin who see things very differently than me

[00:37:48] Yeah, to respect them in a pluralistic way is tough, but that really is the invitation

[00:37:54] Yeah

[00:37:55] Yeah, it seems to be everywhere these days and where the

[00:38:01] The easy thing is to attack and judge the other and it's even easier when you're

[00:38:08] When you feel moral superiority over them and then the hard and necessary thing is to

[00:38:15] Try to understand and try to find common ground

[00:38:18] But engage

[00:38:19] I'm engaged

[00:38:21] Yeah, so uh

[00:38:24] I hear you there. So I want to talk a little bit

[00:38:27] I want to hear more about storytelling and lab show a little bit of history

[00:38:33] And then I'm very interested in all these

[00:38:35] The innovative practices that that you came up with that you design into into this community

[00:38:41] Because I think that's where that's where the designer in me really wakes up

[00:38:45] So tell me how this practice started. I know you had this

[00:38:49] You told us about this realization that narrative is really key

[00:38:52] Yeah, sure

[00:38:54] So if I go too long, just stop me because this is something I'm very passionate about and I can go on for days

[00:39:00] After this labin assassination mid 90s. I was looking for my own path

[00:39:06] And through a lot of ways it brought me to new york where I worked at a synagogue

[00:39:11] as an educator and as a teacher and my portfolio was to engage

[00:39:16] Jewish adults in Jewish literacy through the arts and culture

[00:39:21] And what I realized was that I had all these like really funky awesome

[00:39:26] offerings and sessions and classes on sex and intimacy and

[00:39:31] rainmaking and like

[00:39:34] philosophy and

[00:39:35] Boober and bagels and you got the usual suspects and the majority of people did not

[00:39:41] get engaged

[00:39:42] With these forms of literacy and my motto was like if you're going to want to change you need to know

[00:39:48] In order to know you need to learn and then one saturday. I was at the synagogue and I

[00:39:56] participated

[00:39:57] Slash observed the religious service

[00:40:01] of saturday morning and central to that service is

[00:40:05] The ritual in which we take out the Torah scroll and we read out loud from the Torah

[00:40:12] Now

[00:40:13] Some of us who are familiar with Jewish life

[00:40:16] Know it well most jews who've had a barba mitzvah rite of passage participated in this ritual

[00:40:22] It is conducted every saturday in synagogues near you

[00:40:26] And it's been going on for over 2000 years now that saturday morning something in me shifted

[00:40:33] I watched a theatrical performance taking place in a sanctuary where there were a few hundred people

[00:40:40] Where for about an hour

[00:40:42] A text was performed

[00:40:44] From a scroll from a book

[00:40:48] With a particular musical incantation

[00:40:50] The text itself that saturday morning was from the book of genesis was the story of joseph

[00:40:55] And his brothers and dreams and whoa human trafficking

[00:41:00] Interesting stuff people come up and down to bless and interact the rabbis

[00:41:06] Explain, sermonize

[00:41:08] But for the most part this hour-long ceremonial storytelling was dull

[00:41:14] And i'm being kind

[00:41:16] And I sat there and thought to myself

[00:41:18] What's wrong with this picture right here?

[00:41:20] I am on a thursday evening teaching this story in a salon environment and

[00:41:26] I get some seniors and some people who want a free cup of coffee showing up

[00:41:31] But saturday morning you got the jews and the pews. I got prime time

[00:41:35] And there's a ceremony where we're telling scripture and it's not engaging and this very story of joseph is being

[00:41:43] Performed on the stage on broadway as a musical right now on a saturday matinee and people are paying a hundred bucks to see it

[00:41:53] So I went to the rabbis and I said I want to change the

[00:41:57] Paradigm here give me

[00:41:59] saturday morning main space

[00:42:02] To reimagine how we

[00:42:04] Tell Torah how we talk Torah how we take our scriptures and make them into something relevant political

[00:42:11] emotional psychological meaningful engaging fun

[00:42:15] They said you can't because saturday morning is when we usually have our barb at mitzvahs and

[00:42:20] It's a whole ordeal and the families come and you can't but here's a saturday morning in april

[00:42:26] Where you can take over the saturday morning service with a Torah service. That's the middle of the leviticus

[00:42:31] It's all about leprosy. Nobody wants it go for it

[00:42:35] I went researching what is the anthropological

[00:42:39] History of the Torah service of this ritual that is conducted in every synagogue where every week for

[00:42:45] Throughout the course of a year. There's the rerun

[00:42:50] repeat of the five books of moses and

[00:42:53] The brief highlight of what I discovered was that this is one of the oldest

[00:42:58] ceremonial offerings in the jewish

[00:43:01] Uh menu that has been going on and off for 2500 years

[00:43:07] That it is the core educational

[00:43:11] component of jewish literacy

[00:43:13] And that until a thousand years ago for about 1500 years every time the Torah was publicly proclaimed in public space

[00:43:22] Originally in the marketplace only later in houses of worship. It was always done in split screen

[00:43:28] You would have somebody chanting the Hebrew in beautiful musical notation and alongside you have somebody

[00:43:36] translating live

[00:43:38] Into the language of the time and place

[00:43:41] You had live subtitles

[00:43:44] And the subtitles known as targum or tarjum

[00:43:48] Translation really is an interpretation because you can never translate literally. It is always a process of interpretation

[00:43:56] The people who did the translation were known as

[00:44:00] Those who make understanding happen later on metulge manim interpreters

[00:44:06] and those people were the loud speaker or the

[00:44:10] captions or the bridge between the scripture and

[00:44:14] current day

[00:44:16] And it's a tradition that died out about a thousand years ago for a bunch of socioeconomic religious reasons

[00:44:23] I'd never heard of them and I was blown away. I'm like, oh, this is exactly what I want to do

[00:44:27] I don't want to be a rabbi exactly. I'm not sure I'm an actor perfect. Let's be the translator

[00:44:32] What happens if you take scripture?

[00:44:34] And you bring it to the 21st century as a performance

[00:44:38] There's lots of translations printed in English and any other language. You can sit in the synagogue

[00:44:43] Listen to the Hebrew being chanted watch it being chanted and follow along with the english translation

[00:44:49] But what if it's theater? What if you actually see the english being played out?

[00:44:53] What if it isn't a dry translation but actually a first person narrative that challenges the text?

[00:44:59] What if it becomes interactive?

[00:45:02] so my fuses were on it and then

[00:45:06] That spring I brought

[00:45:08] The chapters in Leviticus about leprosy to life

[00:45:12] By being the translator having doing a lot of research

[00:45:15] And I talked about hiv. It wasn't about leprosy as a biblical

[00:45:19] disease of infection. It was about the modern day. This is

[00:45:23] 1999

[00:45:24] HIV was still is a thing talk about the fear of infection and the psychological aspect of being quarantined

[00:45:32] And people came to me that Saturday morning after services and said what the hell was that?

[00:45:38] I never heard Torah the same way. I never realized that it speaks to my personal human experience

[00:45:43] I sat riveted and I never looked at the book once. What is this?

[00:45:48] So

[00:45:49] That very early experience at congregation Bene Jesharan in the Upper West Side whose pioneering

[00:45:57] Wonderful rabbis gave me the permission to keep on exploring this methodology

[00:46:01] That was the very beginning of storytelling and that that gave me the idea that what we can do

[00:46:07] Is bring back this profession hijack synagogues later. We said upgrades in a gox because

[00:46:13] 9 11 and then entrain people to be these translators so that future generations

[00:46:19] Are permitted to talk back to the text

[00:46:22] And to challenge the homophobic to challenge the colonial to challenge the

[00:46:27] Racist to challenge the misogynistic and say, okay. Here's the Torah. It's written. I'm not denying it

[00:46:33] but I'm talking back to it

[00:46:35] And this is the core of Jewish literacy. You have the Torah the teaching is comprised of two

[00:46:42] Aspects the written Torah Torah she became that's the pdf

[00:46:47] That's what's in the scroll

[00:46:49] That's the canon, but then you have Torah she bought pay the written Torah the oral Torah

[00:46:54] That's the google doc

[00:46:56] And that keeps on updated every generation and the translator is the mouth literally of balpe

[00:47:04] The mouth that talks back

[00:47:06] To the ancient text and updates

[00:47:09] Challenges questions wrestles. I created this Jewish ritual theater company called store telling that summer in 99

[00:47:18] It still goes on we understood after about a decade of exploration

[00:47:22] That the best place to put this methodology of translation to practice

[00:47:27] Is in the coming of age ceremony of what we call be mitzvah because that's gender neutral

[00:47:33] Where young people of Jewish faith and those who love them

[00:47:37] Come to perform this ritual

[00:47:40] And it's alive in a much more common way around this ritual

[00:47:44] Then the people who would go to a synagogue on a Saturday morning. That's a much smaller number

[00:47:49] So from a bandwidth point of view, we are now in the process of investing much more extensive training

[00:47:57] Of people who train young people to be mitzvahs

[00:48:00] Not to chant the Torah necessarily because for most young Jews that is not a skill

[00:48:04] That would use throughout their lives. They don't know Hebrew and they might not chant it in trope

[00:48:09] But to be critical thinkers and to talk back to scripture and to understand the tension between our ancient inherited Judaism

[00:48:16] And who we're becoming that's a tool that would use throughout life to become mavens

[00:48:22] So store telling is now as we speak in this like next phase of being adapted as a training institute and as a methodology

[00:48:30] That will hopefully mostly be helped in in engaging young people and all people in talking back to the text

[00:48:38] That's amazing. And you and you call that the maven method because they in in the book in the bible in the book of

[00:48:43] Nechemiah Nechemiah, you have the description of the very first Torah service in history

[00:48:48] It we know where it happens

[00:48:49] We know when it happens and it describes the

[00:48:53] Hamevinim at Haam la toa this profession has been produced for the first time

[00:48:57] And you speak Hebrew at Hamevin Ibrahim

[00:49:00] But most of our listeners and people on the planet don't the word

[00:49:04] The title the profession is those who understand

[00:49:09] Those who make understanding happen. That is the word maven it later became Yiddish

[00:49:14] Maven

[00:49:15] And nowadays a few blocks away from my house. There's the maven cafe

[00:49:20] And there is a fashion maven and bagel mavens and maven is an American word somebody who was in who's a know it all

[00:49:27] But it really what it means is a translator

[00:49:30] Who makes sure that the ancient is being adapted

[00:49:34] to modern need

[00:49:37] Amazing and you actually train these mavens. I'm curious because

[00:49:42] This is where it gets

[00:49:44] Really interesting where it's not just about having these experiences, but it's about training people to create more and more of these experiences

[00:49:52] What do you teach them? What's it? What is it look? We are in the process of

[00:49:55] re-evaluating and revising the training

[00:49:58] We created a curriculum and we created a pedagogy

[00:50:02] I started off by creating a 12 step

[00:50:05] Manual for how to do storytelling. We called it Torah rehab

[00:50:09] And then we realized that 12 step is too much. So we sized it down to five steps

[00:50:14] There are just five steps how to create a storytelling using the maven method

[00:50:18] We work with people who have some kind of qualification

[00:50:22] sufficient Hebrew or Jewish

[00:50:25] Background we work with clergy Jewish Christian other and we've tried a lot of different trainings over the years and we're like honing

[00:50:32] In on what is the sweet spot of who would be the best person to be trained?

[00:50:36] But we ideally it's a week-long training of that again might might adapt. We're using some of the

[00:50:43] Classical tools for how to do Torah translation

[00:50:47] That are found in Jewish literature in the Talmud. There are about 19 different rules

[00:50:52] For how the Torah translator must conduct himself or herself

[00:50:56] For instance, when you're standing publicly on stage and somebody is reading from the Torah scroll

[00:51:01] The translator the maven may not look into the scroll

[00:51:05] You've got to be oral

[00:51:07] So it will never seem to the audience that what you're saying in English is in the Hebrew scroll

[00:51:15] Right, that's a rule. You got to know it by heart

[00:51:17] But you can't slouch you have to stand straight because you are representing scripture

[00:51:21] It's line by line one line Hebrew one line English one line Hebrew

[00:51:26] One line English that has to do with some kind of both of the vocal ability for the maven

[00:51:31] But also our understanding of oh, I get it. It's ping-pong ancient spoken

[00:51:36] So there's a lot of those rules plus we've brought in modern stagecraft and

[00:51:41] Improv and sometimes it's rap and sometimes people use video or they use music

[00:51:46] But the idea is how do we become the mouths

[00:51:50] Of this tradition and not just neutral transmitters

[00:51:54] But actual thoughtful wrestlers with it people have different styles

[00:51:59] And again, like I said right now it is primarily used to train those

[00:52:05] Trainers of 13 year olds now there is a we can talk about that for a long time because at the age of 13

[00:52:13] Being a public speaker is not necessarily your best feature and I at 13 started heavily

[00:52:20] Right for me might be mitzvah my bar mitzvah was a whole ride of passage because I had to speak

[00:52:25] So we're using it as a way not just to think about how do you

[00:52:29] Relate to scripture and create your own script, but what does it look like for you to be a thoughtful speaker?

[00:52:36] To think of what you want to say and do it less

[00:52:39] And have the ability to be a public presenter

[00:52:43] Per different children's and adults abilities. So it's about a lot of different things. Yeah

[00:52:49] It sounds it sounds delightful. I actually had a pretty good bar mitzvah teacher

[00:52:55] Who took the time to explain the story to me? He was a reform rabbi and he took the time to explain to me

[00:53:02] The idea is behind it and I remember as a completely secular kid

[00:53:07] I've come from a very secular family never took religion very seriously

[00:53:12] But during that process I did and that is the only

[00:53:17] Real connection that I've ever had but with Judaism beyond having being forced to study it at school

[00:53:23] I am pretty uninteresting. Can you hear me? Well, this is sounds like your

[00:53:28] I'm delighted to hear about your experience Iran. It is maybe not completely unusual. You lucked out

[00:53:34] Um, I will say that one of my plans for the next few years

[00:53:38] Which is why I was so excited when you invited me to think about design in this context of ritual life

[00:53:44] Is to really take this to the next level including Israel

[00:53:48] Where to invite Israelis to translate Torah from Jewish into Israeli

[00:53:54] from ancient Hebrew into modern Hebrew is a

[00:54:00] An audacious

[00:54:02] And a political one and one that I'm as I find

[00:54:06] I'm finding out more is very needed

[00:54:09] There's a lot of request for making Judaism meaningful in a modern liberal progressive

[00:54:15] Way and getting young people engaged with this

[00:54:18] Way that that empowers so hopefully in the next few years this this training institute will be

[00:54:25] Reestablished as a bigger offering both here in the states and in Israel

[00:54:29] That's very cool

[00:54:32] So

[00:54:34] I want to dive into a little bit of the more of the design aspects

[00:54:39] But before that maybe introduce us to lab show. What is lab show?

[00:54:43] Well, sure and and how does storytelling connect with it? What's that? Yeah connection totally

[00:54:50] So that's a really fun story. So

[00:54:52] Storytelling is a theater company was founded in 1999. I was young. I was ambitious

[00:54:58] I knew nothing about fundraising or managing anything it quickly became this artistic collective

[00:55:05] of people who wanted to do it and we

[00:55:07] Started doing storytelling. We took the Torah to task. We traveled all over the united states

[00:55:13] I was the artistic director

[00:55:15] And what happened alongside was that a community formed a community that started gathering for Shabbat

[00:55:22] dinners or invented our own version of yonki pool and we were a

[00:55:27] collective of queer and

[00:55:30] Jewish and not necessarily Jewish and not everybody just like a really great group

[00:55:35] And over the course of close to a decade this collective attracted a community and an audience

[00:55:43] And we were doing theater and creating storytelling and educating and training

[00:55:49] But also we're crafting our own ritual space

[00:55:52] And by the time we had our own yonki pool in like 2006 or something

[00:55:58] And there were a thousand people there

[00:56:00] And the methodology we used for translating toa in challenging the grid

[00:56:06] Were the ones we used for translating and challenging prayer

[00:56:10] And thinking of how do we not just translate the Hebrew prayers into whatever English?

[00:56:15] But how do we question what's there and how do we make this work for people who might be agnostic or

[00:56:22] People who are not Jewish or for those of us in interfaith relationships. And how do we

[00:56:27] Design the religious ritual into an interactive theatrical engaging experience

[00:56:35] that

[00:56:36] is like

[00:56:39] Nothing any of us have been to before but that excites us

[00:56:43] So we were experimenting and then there are different versions of the chronology there

[00:56:49] But at some point around 2007 2008 we realized that we are evolving from a theater company

[00:56:56] That has like a side industry of creating ritual and ritual space to actually a ritual congregation

[00:57:04] that is grounded in theater and

[00:57:07] We took a year to

[00:57:10] Focus group and brainstorm and be in a lot of different conversations

[00:57:14] And out of that came the realization that we're going to morph

[00:57:18] And we're going to become a a congregation and lab shul

[00:57:22] Was my suggestion. I was reading John Dewey at the time and really interested in educational reform. So

[00:57:29] Lab is the lab and shul is like the Yiddish word for like a one-room school house where everything happens

[00:57:35] So we went with lab shul as just like a placeholder while we were brainstorming and it stuck

[00:57:40] And and I also decided I was nearing 40 at the time

[00:57:44] That in order for me to be the leader of this community and to be really a change agent from within

[00:57:51] That I will to everybody's surprise take on the rabbit and actually go to school and be ordained as a rabbi

[00:57:59] So I took the next few years at the jewish theological seminary here in new york city to become ordained as a conservative rabbi

[00:58:07] While we were attempt while we were trying out and those were crazy years

[00:58:11] But by 2016 I was ordained

[00:58:15] And lab shul is now in its tween years

[00:58:19] And we are still experimenting what it's like to be a lab with the storytelling methodology at the heart of what we do

[00:58:27] Whether we translate scripture prayer whether we adapt weddings funerals

[00:58:33] Life cycle moments and even covet really thinking how do we translate what we've known into

[00:58:39] Helpful and applicable offerings that make people's lives better

[00:58:45] Yeah

[00:58:46] Incredible I like the lab. It's experimental and it ties very beautifully into the design

[00:58:52] Sensibility that I'm trying to connect this with but before we go there. I wanted to say I love your tagline

[00:58:58] Which is everybody friendly artist driven god optional all ages. How could it be more perfect more open more exciting

[00:59:06] We're working on more

[00:59:08] We're working on working our way through a

[00:59:11] multi-year very invested

[00:59:13] process of being worthy of the title anti racist and we have pop up in our tagline as well

[00:59:21] COVID made that irrelevant. We don't have a building that was by design and each one of those titles really was very thoughtfully

[00:59:29] Crafted I will say that god optional that I came up with is something that we're

[00:59:34] thinking of how to rename

[00:59:36] Because what it really means is you can believe in god. You don't believe in god whatever you believe in god

[00:59:41] as love as life as essence as mystery as as

[00:59:46] as your higher self as

[00:59:49] Nature that's fine. It's metaphor and we don't want to be stuck to that same old notion of a hierarchy

[00:59:55] Of a transcendental judging god, but a lot of people misjudge or misinterpret what this god optional means

[01:00:02] So at some point we might rewrite it

[01:00:05] But in the lab sense of who we are it's constantly about exploring what again what we inherited

[01:00:13] And how it keeps shifting

[01:00:16] No, so I love this so

[01:00:19] I don't know if you have any

[01:00:22] direct relation to or direct connection to design thinking or design as a theory as a practice

[01:00:29] So I'll introduce design thinking so design thinking is this theory that was popularized in the stanford design school

[01:00:37] Which is now changing many institutions around the world from big businesses to governments

[01:00:43] And it breaks down the design process into five stages. So it starts with empathy

[01:00:48] empathize with a problem as a

[01:00:52] challenge

[01:00:53] Then define define the problem define what you're trying to solve

[01:00:57] Then then ideate which is essentially

[01:01:01] A process of divergence

[01:01:03] Many divergent ideas and then eventually convergence into a few solutions that actually

[01:01:08] Are worth trying then prototype

[01:01:11] Which means try this is the lab. This is why I connect with the lab build something that

[01:01:16] To try out and then test is the final stage

[01:01:19] And that's and then keep empathizing defining ideating prototyping testing until you have a solution that's stable

[01:01:26] Though I guess stability is not necessarily the goal

[01:01:29] So

[01:01:32] The first I so I guess the first question is do you recognize these stages in your own process in your own

[01:01:40] Journey

[01:01:41] Look, what's crazy? I'm immediately trying to see whether this works with a five step maven method

[01:01:46] Which is how we use we work with every

[01:01:50] Story to craft a new storytelling experience out of it. It's a stretch

[01:01:55] I can work on it

[01:01:56] But I love this. I'm as far as design from the very very get go of my work even before storytelling

[01:02:03] The visual design the marketing the packaging the aesthetics is so important to me

[01:02:11] I have I'm notorious in the storytelling lab show

[01:02:16] Universe for being an impossible and irate

[01:02:20] Um

[01:02:21] So to see when we're design. Yeah, no, I'm basically like every thing we do

[01:02:25] I need to work with the graphic designers and I'm like no this I want this and think and what can I say?

[01:02:31] I'm pretty good at it and I'm going to let go comes from the table

[01:02:34] I think aesthetics matter, but it's not just about the aesthetics. It's about seduction

[01:02:38] so many people are so

[01:02:41] Triggered

[01:02:43] I've always suggested allergic to religious life to Judaism to old school. So there's something about giving it a fresh surprising

[01:02:52] Seductive approach that actually oh wow you can do that. Okay

[01:02:57] So the empathy is where let's say we're looking at whatever Shabbat pass over yonkipoo and saying, okay

[01:03:04] Here's what this is about. It's important. It's meaningful. It's here to give us

[01:03:09] Let's let's define what the issue here. It's beautiful, but it doesn't work

[01:03:13] So what are we going to do in making yonkipoo applicable to young jews and those who love them for whom hebrou doesn't necessarily

[01:03:20] Resonate god is not a thing repentance is repugnant

[01:03:24] But the search for for exploration and reflection and community and being moved

[01:03:30] Is what we want so then we're going to ideate and we're going to try a whole bunch of different ways of taking that old product and tweaking it

[01:03:38] And then the prototype I'll say so here we are

[01:03:42] X years into trying our version of

[01:03:46] yonkipoo

[01:03:47] And we've been testing it some of it works some of it doesn't we're right now in the process of

[01:03:54] planning yonkipoo

[01:03:56] 2021 as a hybrid model of in-person and online

[01:04:00] With some of the ashkenazi traditions and sphatic traditions with leaders from different traditions with the levels of interactivity that

[01:04:09] We're keep pushing and

[01:04:13] I would say

[01:04:15] in some way

[01:04:17] That is exactly how we're working and I would love for it to be more

[01:04:21] Professionally thought of it certainly as we're thinking of the storytelling next year duration

[01:04:27] Sounds like I need to work with you or with somebody on like very very coherent design

[01:04:32] Thinking as we strategically plan the next phase

[01:04:36] Yeah, what I find is many people that I talk to that that are

[01:04:40] Making new things new original things and naturally follow this kind of path because there there is no other way

[01:04:47] And so the way that people write about design thinking and define it the way they

[01:04:52] Their way they define it is it's different from engineering thinking. It's different from scientific thinking

[01:04:59] Engineering thinking is you know where you want to go and you just have to figure out how to get there in in it's very

[01:05:05] And you know the subject matter you know the rules of the medium and you're just constructing something that works

[01:05:12] And here we don't know where we're going

[01:05:14] We know there's a problem and we need to build our way towards a solution

[01:05:18] And I love it and I see it everywhere now like a hammer that sees every problem as a nail

[01:05:23] But I'll make this an additional connection. So I know if you lend the botan's book about religion for atheists

[01:05:29] The school of life is a favorite. Yeah, yeah he

[01:05:33] So I have a signed copy. I went to see him live and I and I love this book and the book

[01:05:38] Basically started me on on the path to to my degree which is in religious studies

[01:05:43] And he talks about having secularized badly, right? Having

[01:05:47] gaps in secular life

[01:05:49] Where we don't really have good ways of dealing with birth death

[01:05:53] Love and marriage loneliness

[01:05:55] Old age dealing with trauma is on a communal level. And so I I want to hear your

[01:06:02] designer

[01:06:04] Take at these problems

[01:06:07] Do you see them as gaps that you're trying to feel or do you come at it more from a more of a

[01:06:14] Specific practice that you're trying to

[01:06:16] Workshop and make better. How do you think about the touch points with people's lives?

[01:06:22] So this goes back to something we said earlier that for me the bottom line of ritual or practice

[01:06:29] is not

[01:06:31] The preservation of Jewish

[01:06:34] But the

[01:06:36] Engagement with human so for instance a friend of mine lost his father last week

[01:06:42] complicated story complicated family

[01:06:46] Jewish not Jewish elder

[01:06:49] complicated

[01:06:51] They wanted a shiva they wanted the Jewish ceremony where you come together at home and mourn

[01:06:57] But it was pretty clear that this should not be or this would not benefit from having the usual

[01:07:03] Building blocks of a shiva that might include an evening service in whatever

[01:07:08] version of

[01:07:10] Contemplative worship. Yes, maybe a mourner's kadesh

[01:07:13] But this is not going to be a traditional shiva and so the understanding was it what this family needed what this person needed

[01:07:21] Was not the particular

[01:07:24] traditional context

[01:07:26] but a framework within which to mourn

[01:07:30] To bring family and friends into the sphere to not be alone

[01:07:35] And to honor his father's memory in some way

[01:07:39] so

[01:07:40] Partially on the phone with it with him and partially on the spot in the living room

[01:07:44] We crafted a one-hour ritual in the context of the three hour gathering

[01:07:49] Where obviously food was important and just socialization

[01:07:52] But there was like a one-hour ritual where

[01:07:56] It wasn't about it was using the traditional Jewish tools of shiva

[01:08:00] But tweaking and adjusting them to work for this particular family

[01:08:05] It had to have a beginning middle end

[01:08:09] There had to be a way of being in the liminal

[01:08:11] There had to be a way of like silencing the chatter and bringing ourselves into presence

[01:08:17] This is not a room of people who know each other and noise meditation are given

[01:08:20] But there's a way you can get people to be quiet. There's a way for letting him be

[01:08:25] Present and vulnerable and fragile

[01:08:28] There's a way to invite other people to share stories about the dead man without

[01:08:33] overtaking the room and there's like this navigation and facilitation

[01:08:38] With some poetry

[01:08:39] And at the very end we had handouts of the mourner's prayer the kadish

[01:08:43] With our english translation that is very user friendly and everybody friendly and all that and people were invited to just come and say

[01:08:50] Together it was a one-hour very moving meaningful ceremony

[01:08:54] That used the elements that we're familiar with between them to suit the situation as opposed to be a cookie cutter

[01:09:02] Yeah

[01:09:03] So i'm using that just as an example because this is really what drives me and my team and many others

[01:09:09] To consider every opportunity of a life cycle moment as an opportunity

[01:09:14] for growth

[01:09:16] And for meaning making what I when I start a ceremony

[01:09:20] Such as I did with this particular case in this home. I said look

[01:09:24] Ask yourselves 60 people in this room. Why are we here?

[01:09:30] My response yours might be different is we're here for three reasons

[01:09:36] Number one, we're here to honor the memory and the legacy of a human being who is now deceased

[01:09:44] Now maybe that helps the soul go up to heaven. I don't have data on that

[01:09:49] Maybe it's just honors the fact that this footprint has been left here for us to honor. Okay

[01:09:57] Second we hear the support the mourners his son and widow

[01:10:01] grandchildren

[01:10:03] Whatever we hear to support the mourners

[01:10:06] By letting them emote and not be alone and share their feelings and be held

[01:10:12] And third we're here to deal with our own anxiety around mortality

[01:10:17] We're here to come together as human beings honoring life and honoring death

[01:10:22] And taking the time in the middle of our day middle of our lives

[01:10:26] To come together as humans

[01:10:28] And do what humans do in every tradition in every culture

[01:10:32] celebrate life

[01:10:34] Learn from the deceased what we can do to learn life better and be there for each other

[01:10:40] Now there might be other reasons why you're here today

[01:10:43] Right that is the deceased was your boss and you have to show up or there's free food. Those are all legitimate reasons

[01:10:50] But once you frame it, you know, oh, right

[01:10:53] That's why I'm here

[01:10:55] I'm having a human experience

[01:10:57] And it's beyond my ego

[01:11:00] Yeah, it's not just utilitarian or practical

[01:11:03] So I find that all life cycle moments such as the ones you mentioned

[01:11:07] Once you frame them in this way

[01:11:10] They're about perpetuating our sense of well-being and they're allowing us to grow as people

[01:11:16] And then yes, I am at cousin Marty's bar mitzvah and it's boring as thing

[01:11:20] But oh, but that's why I'm here

[01:11:22] And hopefully if we do it, it's not boring etc. Etc. So it's really about the framing

[01:11:28] Of the why and it's the designing of the how

[01:11:33] Yeah, that makes me think of this book the art of gathering

[01:11:37] By yeah by Priya Parker. Yes. Yeah, my dear friend. Yes

[01:11:41] I'm in it actually

[01:11:42] Oh wonderful

[01:11:43] I read it, but I guess I didn't make the connection

[01:11:46] But it's it's all about how these gatherings work better when you have a purpose when you know what the purpose is

[01:11:52] wonderful book and so

[01:11:54] If if we look at secular life

[01:11:56] And I tend to and I know you're in the same position. I tend to compare Israel and the us a lot and

[01:12:03] One reason I'm in Israel now and not in the us after having lived in New York for nine years

[01:12:11] Is that the us feels to I don't want to say too individualistic, but too isolated people are too

[01:12:19] separate from each other and

[01:12:22] Uninvolved with each other's lives and people feel that's right in a very deep sense

[01:12:28] That everybody that the right that the right thing for everybody to be concerned with is their own life and and not much else

[01:12:34] And and this is comparatively everyone is different, of course, but in Israel there's much much more

[01:12:41] a percentage of everyone's mindset is much more to

[01:12:44] The collective endeavor and the collective trouble and the collective everything

[01:12:49] And as a result of that the us fell to me often like a lonely place

[01:12:55] Because even though I had many friends they were

[01:12:58] too self-involved to to actually feel like a community and

[01:13:04] So I wonder what you think about that and then what is what would be your advice

[01:13:10] For finding a tribe even in a place

[01:13:15] Like New York where it's filled with hyper individualists chasing their own career

[01:13:19] What are your thoughts about that?

[01:13:20] First of all, I resonate very deeply as an Israeli who's been here for 20 years and just spent seven weeks in Israel and

[01:13:29] It's no secret to those who know me and work with me my

[01:13:32] my trajectory to return to Israel if not full-time then a lot of my time is

[01:13:37] on the

[01:13:39] It's happening for all the reasons you've said I also miss my mother tongue you've read and there's something in me that

[01:13:45] In my 50s now i'm planning forward

[01:13:48] There's work. I want to be doing there and there's a part of my being that sings there in a

[01:13:53] deeper way

[01:13:55] resonates deeply

[01:13:56] I agree with you about the notion of the the rugged individualism of the American and

[01:14:02] The capitalistic notion of the consumer and the great deal of loneliness. I think kovid brought that to the forefront in tragic ways

[01:14:10] The good news is that it's making us aware of what we need to do to

[01:14:15] Craft and co-create these circles of meaning and community in whatever ways possible so that we gather and don't isolate

[01:14:24] Um between theory and practice the gap is big, but there's an aspiration here

[01:14:30] I think both in israel and here and elsewhere the invitation

[01:14:37] Is for people to figure out

[01:14:39] What of these circles of care?

[01:14:43] That one must invest in

[01:14:46] Doesn't have to be religious

[01:14:48] Right. I I was in in televieve a few weeks ago on a Friday night

[01:14:52] And I was on a rooftop with some friends and we had a Friday night dinner

[01:14:56] That as I like to have and I looked down for my from this like seventh floor thing in north televieve and

[01:15:04] Looked at all the balconies where people having what's it called?

[01:15:08] Right like Friday night meal now

[01:15:09] It's not a shabbat meal in the sense of a religious Sabbath observance and it might or it might not include the

[01:15:16] Ritual props from a glass of wine to a you know braided bread, but people come together. It's a thing

[01:15:23] And so I think that kind of thing is an important thing

[01:15:26] And whether that is reading clubs or whether that is knitting circles, whether it's people who are finding the ways to

[01:15:36] Invest in each other's well-being that tribal wisdom

[01:15:41] Of small circles within a bigger circle

[01:15:43] Is a must

[01:15:45] I would say that full abtual as a community. We realize that people coming together for

[01:15:50] Spiritual contemplation, whether that's a Friday night or yom kippu

[01:15:54] Or yom kippu that's only a very small slice of what the communal responsibility is

[01:16:00] People coming together because they're dealing with aging people coming together because they're queer

[01:16:05] And I want to talk about that people come together because they are the parents of be midst for children

[01:16:09] People are coming together because they're involved in social justice projects around refugees

[01:16:14] People are coming together for any sorts of reasons, but these small circles

[01:16:20] Within the largest circle is what creates intimacy and accountability and battles isolation and I

[01:16:27] speak for myself like I

[01:16:29] need those in my life and

[01:16:31] I think what's interesting is that people like you and like me and other people we know

[01:16:36] Serve a role in society as being the conveners

[01:16:39] Like we take the rock and we throw it into the lake and then there is a ripple

[01:16:43] And then it's our job to work with and delegate and co-create and empower other people

[01:16:49] To be the co-creators of these circles so that they go on

[01:16:53] And perpetuate themselves. So we're not the ones to always carry the here. I am hosting dinner again

[01:17:00] That gets to be exhausting. That's a burnout

[01:17:02] So there's wisdom here and doing in weaving these responsibilities of leadership of bialik

[01:17:09] Israel's

[01:17:10] famed

[01:17:11] Poet came up with this idea of onyx about way back in the 1920s or 1930s

[01:17:17] It wasn't a religious thing

[01:17:18] It was like a cultural get together on Friday night to celebrate human values and culture and art and just come together

[01:17:27] Right, so it's things like that these type of designing these moments

[01:17:31] And these opportunities for us to be together as humans

[01:17:35] And to support each other through whatever shared common denominator we have

[01:17:40] Right, I think that's really the invitation

[01:17:43] That's that's amazing. That's a good that's good advice and I think for me

[01:17:48] I may be locked into this idea of I have to find the perfect community

[01:17:52] The perfect tribe instead of just going for

[01:17:55] Let's join many different groups and see what

[01:17:59] See where I feel at home. I keep thinking this is I'm not a zen Buddhist. I'm not as

[01:18:04] I'm not at this. I'm not at that. I'm almost prejudging and searching for some sort of perfect situation

[01:18:09] Whereas I have a friend who's a successful designer

[01:18:12] Who just volunteers at the maghendavidadom, which is the the israeli red cross

[01:18:17] And he has a built-in community and also that the feeling of doing good in the world and he feels more connected

[01:18:25] He has his tribe right right right and and I think what's happening now is that we have the invitation to

[01:18:32] Maybe for always maybe for a while to be in multiple tribes

[01:18:36] With inability capacity is an issue, but know that they are

[01:18:40] One size fit all is not gonna cut it like in some way we are evolving as a species in some way

[01:18:46] By the way, my time in israel now what I've noticed is that

[01:18:50] Probably because of the extent of trauma

[01:18:53] And the spiritual thirst because judieism to a great extent is not

[01:18:58] Nourishing people's thirst for spirit and for community psychedelics

[01:19:03] And like medicine circles

[01:19:06] are profound

[01:19:09] And so many people are doing them and that is a tribal literally a tribal response to human isolation

[01:19:15] And you're having these like circles growing and growing in the same way that through around vipassana and around through zen and around

[01:19:23] Through various jewish spiritual practices and others people are finding their small tribes where they

[01:19:30] Can grow as individuals and also witness each other's being

[01:19:35] Interesting

[01:19:35] So I have one final question for you, which is our standard closing question

[01:19:39] Where I actually quote from al-an-de-boton

[01:19:42] I cite his TED talk where he talks about the difference between a lecture and a sermon

[01:19:47] And he says the lecture is there to give you a little bit of information. That's the kind of secular

[01:19:51] Version and a sermon is there to change your life

[01:19:55] And so

[01:19:57] I

[01:19:58] am going to tailor this to my audience where let's assume that they are

[01:20:03] by and large

[01:20:05] completely secular

[01:20:07] Never found their way into any sort of religion any sort of spiritual practice might be open to it

[01:20:13] But what is a sermon that you can give a person like that one thing that could really change your life

[01:20:20] Go spend 10 minutes

[01:20:23] Without your phone

[01:20:26] Sitting

[01:20:28] Against a tree

[01:20:30] Sitting under a tree look at the tree feel the tree listen to the tree

[01:20:35] The oldest image in our semitic tradition of the divine is that of a tree

[01:20:40] She was cut down by patriarchy

[01:20:43] By men who sought to replace the god of here and now

[01:20:48] With a god of up there

[01:20:50] And there is something about the tree that is our partner in

[01:20:55] oxygen and life

[01:20:57] That is the metaphor for so many of our

[01:21:01] growth

[01:21:03] paradigms

[01:21:04] that is simply and silently

[01:21:08] Inviting us to rediscover a very deep imminent sense of being in the world

[01:21:15] From our roots to our trunk to our branches to

[01:21:19] every single

[01:21:21] piece of our leaves dropping and growing again. I would say the invitation for

[01:21:27] Reclaiming our divinity and our humanity

[01:21:31] Can probably benefit from some time

[01:21:34] Spent with a tree

[01:21:36] Thank you very much. Hi. It was a pleasure

[01:21:40] Thank you so much for the invitation and I hope we continue these

[01:21:43] conversations and ideally in person under a tree

[01:21:50] All right, that's it for today

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