Rabbi Amichai Lau-Lavie is an Israeli-born, Jewish educator, writer, and performance artist. He's the creator of Storahtelling, Inc. and the founding spiritual leader of Lab/Shul in NYC, an artist-driven, everybody friendly, God-optional, pop-up experimental community for sacred Jewish gatherings.
Amichai is a member of the Global Justice Fellowship of the American Jewish World Service, a founding member of the Jewish Emergent Network, serves on the Leadership Council of the New York Jewish Agenda, the Advisory Council of the International School for Peace - a Refugee Support Project in Greece, a member of the Advisory Council for the Institute for Jewish Spirituality, and is a faculty member of the Reboot Network.
Through all his endeavors, he brings a creative, inclusive, and vital energy to Jewish practice and Jewish life.
EPISODE SUMMARY
In this conversation we talk about:
- How the Jewish concept of the set table served both as a happy early memory, and as an organizing principle for his later work.
- How Covid 19 made rituals and online communities more important than ever.
- His orthodox roots as the scion of an ancient and respected rabbinical dynasty, and his journey of self discovery through theater, drag, and art.
- His creation of storytelling, a way to bring to life the ancient ritual of the reading of the Torah, and the Maven Method he developed to spread the practice further.
- The emergence of Lab/Shul and the community around it.
- The power of spiritual design and a well-designed practice in transforming our lives and our communities for the better.
We also discuss:
- How is religion used as a tool in the service of humanity?
- What happens if you bring scripture to the 21st century as a performance?
- Why is the tribal wisdom of small circles within a bigger circle so important?
I've long believed that one of the most promising avenues to apply design skills and creativity to is in designing communities, social rituals, and spiritual practice that suits the modern world. And, as such, there's no one I can think of that exemplifies this better than Rabbi Amichai Lau-Lavie. I think this conversation, which is full of wisdom and fun, is a great introduction to exactly the type of spiritual design we need to see more of. So let's jump right in with Rabbi Amichai Lau-Lavie.
TIMESTAMP CHAPTERS
[3:52] Life During Covid
[10:17] The Wisdom of the Set Table
[22:31] The Birth of Storahtelling
[29:55] A Paradigm Shift from Patriarchy
[38:25] Rebirth of the Translator
[54:34] The Design of Lab/Shul
[1:00:19] Design Thinking and Virtual Practice
[1:11:54] Individualism vs Collectivism
[1:19:36] The Significance of the Tree
EPISODE LINKS
- Amichai's Links
- Other Links
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[00:00:00] The text itself that Saturday morning was from the book of Genesis was the story of Joseph and his brothers and dreams and whoa
[00:00:08] Human trafficking interesting stuff people come up and down to bless and interact the rabbis
[00:00:15] Explain, sermon eyes, but for the most part this hour-long ceremonial storytelling was dull
[00:00:23] And I'm being kind and I sat there and thought to myself
[00:00:27] What's wrong with this picture right Saturday morning? You got the Jews are in the pews
[00:00:31] I got prime time and there's a ceremony where we're telling scripture and it's not engaging and this very story of Joseph is being
[00:00:41] Performed on the stage on Broadway as a musical right now on a Saturday matinee
[00:00:47] And people are paying a hundred bucks to see it
[00:00:50] I'm Eran Jor and this is remake a podcast about design systems and society in each episode
[00:00:57] I talked to someone who's trying to change our lives for the better in some meaningful way
[00:01:02] With a through a new product new venture or a new way of looking at the world
[00:01:06] And I try to understand how they came to it. What makes them tick and what we can learn from them
[00:01:13] Rabbi Amichai Laulavie is an Israeli-born Jewish educator writer and performance artist
[00:01:20] He's the creator of storytelling incorporated and the founding spiritual leader of lab show in New York City an
[00:01:28] Artist-driven everybody friendly
[00:01:30] God optional pop up experimental community for sacred Jewish gatherings
[00:01:37] Amichai is a member of the global justice fellowship of the American Jewish World Service a
[00:01:43] Founding member of the Jewish Emergent Network
[00:01:46] Serves on the leadership council of the New York Jewish agenda
[00:01:50] The advisory council of the International School for Peace a refugee support project in Greece a
[00:01:57] member of the advisory council for the Institute for Jewish spirituality and is a faculty member of the reboot network
[00:02:06] Through all his endeavors he brings a creative inclusive and vital energy to Jewish practice and Jewish life
[00:02:15] Today we talk about how the Jewish concept of the set table served both as a happy early memory and as an organizing principle for his later work
[00:02:25] How COVID-19 made rituals and online communities more important than ever
[00:02:30] His orthodox roots as the scion of an ancient and respected rabbinical dynasty and his journey of self discovery through theater drag and art
[00:02:40] His creation of storytelling a way to bring to life the ancient ritual of the reading of the Torah and the Maven method
[00:02:48] He developed to spread the practice further
[00:02:51] The emergence of lab show in the community around it and
[00:02:54] The power of spiritual design and a well-designed practice in transforming our lives and our communities for the better
[00:03:03] I have long believed that one of the most promising avenues to apply design skills and creativity to
[00:03:10] In designing communities social rituals and spiritual practice that suits the modern world
[00:03:16] And as such there's no one I can think of that exemplifies this better than Rabbi Ami chai lau levi
[00:03:23] I think this conversation which is full of wisdom and fun is a great introduction to
[00:03:30] Exactly the type of spiritual design
[00:03:32] We need to see more of so let's jump right in with Rabbi Ami chai lau levi
[00:03:40] All right, I'm sitting here across the screen from Rabbi Ami chai lau levi. I'm a hi welcome to the podcast
[00:03:47] Thank you Iran wonderful to be with you in the same virtual space
[00:03:51] Yeah
[00:03:52] The kind of mandatory question these days because of COVID and everything that's happening
[00:03:57] I wanted to know you're back in New York now, but how did you experience COVID?
[00:04:04] first personally what was going on and then in terms of your
[00:04:10] In terms of your work in terms of your congregation from where I'm sitting right now in my home in Harlem
[00:04:15] I'm looking at this really big mulberry tree that has become very dear to me and
[00:04:21] possibly me to her and so
[00:04:24] COVID really got me to be
[00:04:27] not just at home, but also in my body and
[00:04:30] present in my
[00:04:32] Presence in a deep way so that nature became very important. I'm very lucky to have a backyard
[00:04:38] So both really being very attuned to the subtle changes of the seasons
[00:04:45] doing gardening both within my house and outside and
[00:04:49] nurturing and nourishing my sense of well-being and finding the
[00:04:56] Practices that I already have
[00:04:59] So critical and my discipline more necessary for my morning meditation and yoga
[00:05:04] my version of prayer deepened in a deep way and
[00:05:09] What I did as soon as social isolation quarantine began on March 15th, 2020. I started an online
[00:05:19] Meditation practice for my community which we call the daily Sal Spa
[00:05:23] So that just to get people connected to each other to feel less isolated to have the ability to breathe
[00:05:30] To recycle some of the Jewish
[00:05:33] Spiritual tools in a way that will make sense to a very wide array of people. So the daily soul spa started off as a 30-minute
[00:05:42] meditation
[00:05:44] poetry prayer mode that ran for 120 days straight
[00:05:50] That I ran every day at 3 p.m
[00:05:52] So it was taking the same principles that we already have the tools to not freak out and
[00:05:58] And translate them into the virtual it was extremely grounding and helpful
[00:06:04] For me and for the many hundreds of people who joined us over those many days
[00:06:08] And we now continue with the daily soul spa. We took it down to three days a week about a year ago
[00:06:15] Whatever one loses track of time. So that was just one of the many ways in which sanity was preserved
[00:06:21] Yeah, and if I'm not mistaken you're doing some online
[00:06:25] Rituals and practices before is as part of experimentation. Am I right about that this kind of yes, yeah, I've been intrigued by
[00:06:33] the accessibility virtual learning and ritual and connection for many years now and
[00:06:41] When COVID began in some way lab show my community, we were already poised to just take it to the next level
[00:06:48] No
[00:06:49] Yeah, so that's very lucky and I was interested to hear about the meditation aspect. So I took a
[00:06:57] seminar
[00:06:58] In Tel Aviv University with Tomer Pelsik. Oh, I don't know if you know the name. Sure. He's a dear friend
[00:07:04] Okay, great. So he did a seminar on Jewish meditation
[00:07:08] It was actually a seminar about Jewish meditation with Buddhist meditation
[00:07:12] So it was him and Karen Arbel. She taught the Buddha side and he taught the Jewish side
[00:07:17] Fantastic and it was phenomenal. So do you approach it from a let's Jewish practice. Do you approach it from a
[00:07:25] Whatever works angle? How did you?
[00:07:30] Incorporate that that's a great question. I will say and Tomer if you're listening, I have your book
[00:07:35] I really started it with a new book. He has a new book now. Yeah, just just today. I heard that he put a new book out
[00:07:42] Yeah, but amazing. It's very prolific. Look, I'll say two things about it first of all my approach in general
[00:07:48] to all the ways in which I
[00:07:51] embody and
[00:07:54] Embed Jewish practices in my life. The bottom line is not Jewish. The bottom line is human
[00:08:01] Jewish is a tool in the service of humanity. That is the same in my opinion for all religions and all paths
[00:08:09] The tap is there to bring us water
[00:08:14] It's not about the tap
[00:08:16] So whether that is Shabbat or whether that is Yom Kippur
[00:08:19] Whether that is a morning meditation or how we sit shiva for a loved one
[00:08:24] These are tools that we are very fortunate to have inherited
[00:08:29] Having been perfected for thousands of years by practitioners of the spirit who found ways as we keep finding ways
[00:08:37] To be closer to ourselves and to each other and to whatever mystery is
[00:08:42] So for me the bottom line is not to do something Jewish for the sake of doing something Jewish and
[00:08:47] Perpetuating or preserving Jewish. I'm doing it because there's some good stuff here. There's some good Intel
[00:08:53] There's some good tools. There's some good technologies
[00:08:56] There are some good and meaningful
[00:08:58] Mythologies that I feel connected to because in this lifetime, this is the mother tongue that I was born into
[00:09:05] Meditation and Tommy is a much better teacher of that than I is a tool that is used in every culture
[00:09:12] To have us be more present more focused more helpful to ourselves and to each other
[00:09:19] I found over the years my path into the meditative contemplative path not through the Jewish
[00:09:27] direction through vipassana through Zen and
[00:09:31] Eventually found my way into an integration where through using some Jewish practices some Jewish liturgy
[00:09:39] connecting the path of meditation to the Jewish life cycle and
[00:09:43] At the end of the day breath is breath
[00:09:46] Hmm and focus is focus so the fusion or the hybrid is really where I find it most
[00:09:53] No
[00:09:54] Interesting most of my meditation background comes from
[00:09:58] Buddhism and even a very specific kind of Buddhism, which is the kind of taravada Buddhist tradition
[00:10:03] But then you encounter Zen and you encounter Tibetan practices that work and for me. It's all about
[00:10:11] Getting to know your mind and running experiments and seeing what works and so I
[00:10:16] Think we're ready now to start our journey
[00:10:18] Which we usually start with this
[00:10:22] biographical opener question, which is what's something
[00:10:26] You've learned in childhood that still drives you today and still with you today. What a wonderful question
[00:10:33] This feels very tangential and trivial and very gay and I'll own all of them
[00:10:39] I grew up in an orthodox home in Israel very religious and
[00:10:44] social home and I would say one of the
[00:10:48] Highlights of the week for sure was Shabbat
[00:10:52] Hmm and the Shabbat table sitting around the Sabbath table on Friday night and on Saturday for lunch
[00:10:58] Was not only the key social moment where people will come together family neighbors friends
[00:11:04] because during the week it's much more random but
[00:11:08] the gastro-judaic experience of food being a central element of socialization and
[00:11:15] Theology perhaps even spirituality in a deeper way and the aesthetics of the table my mother who is of British origin
[00:11:25] brought really good silver and the nice linens and the good plates and
[00:11:30] My job as a child was to help with a flower arrangement and to help set the table
[00:11:36] So I have this innate memory that I still enjoy today to host
[00:11:42] To have a table that is a beautiful table with the people around the table
[00:11:46] That is curated not just as far as the dishes but also the conversation and the topics and
[00:11:53] I think the notion of the table
[00:11:56] is
[00:11:58] such an important feature of
[00:12:01] My Jewish upbringing and my Jewish life
[00:12:04] That at my home the table is where we come together and
[00:12:08] I'm looking outside my window right now at my outside round table in the garden where
[00:12:13] First thing I did when I cut back from Israel just a few days ago
[00:12:16] I got back on Thursday morning and by Friday evening. I hosted a dinner party
[00:12:21] Because that's how you come back home
[00:12:24] Yeah, so I would so I would really will take this notion of the table setting and I can be of course
[00:12:32] Metaphilosophical about it and say that the key
[00:12:35] Text of Jewish law
[00:12:38] For better and for worse that is from the 16th century is known as
[00:12:43] Shulchanaruch the set table right by Yosef Karo who wrote this book
[00:12:47] Which is really the a to z of how to live your life Jewishly
[00:12:51] I use the metaphor of the set table the sort of grounding principle of Jewish life. That's interesting
[00:12:57] So talk more about that idea of the set table because I'm definitely not familiar with that enough
[00:13:03] So there's a I am familiar with I guess the closest thing that I can come up to this is the Passover table
[00:13:11] right where you have
[00:13:14] Specific dishes served in a specific way eaten in a specific order
[00:13:19] With certain blessings and then also woven with the story of Passover. So
[00:13:26] Is that a good metaphor? Is there more to it than that?
[00:13:30] It's a perfect metaphor
[00:13:32] I think what's so interesting if you think about the Sabbath table and the Passover table and I'll
[00:13:38] Extended or expanded beyond the Jewish context to let's say the Christian context is
[00:13:44] That the evolution of the human experience of the sacred over the last
[00:13:50] 2000 plus years includes a decentralization
[00:13:55] from a temple
[00:13:57] Where there is an altar and on the altar an animal is sacrificed or grains and that is where God resides and that's where the
[00:14:07] Technicians of the sacred officiate the priests and
[00:14:11] That's where you come to eat and that's where you come to be in the presence of the sacred
[00:14:18] That's the miss back
[00:14:19] That's the altar that you read about extensively in the Bible that was part of the pagan Semitic
[00:14:24] Traditions of the Near East that is very much central to many of the Mayan or the at-stack ways
[00:14:30] That in many ways is what brings people together
[00:14:34] Mmm. Now what happened in the Jewish?
[00:14:39] Historical and mythic landscape is that the temple ceased to exist first from a functional point of view
[00:14:46] We just became a bureaucratic
[00:14:48] Center of religious life that was not of resonance to many Jews
[00:14:53] Including young Jesus who walks into the temple in Jerusalem and says what the hell is this and knocks over the tables of the money
[00:15:00] lenders and and offers an alternative to that religious bureaucracy of
[00:15:06] proximity to the sacred and later on within several decades the temple is destroyed by the Romans and
[00:15:13] The religious leadership the Jews the early Christians come up with an alternative
[00:15:19] It isn't a singular altar in a singular place called Jerusalem every house of worship and every home
[00:15:27] Contains an altar
[00:15:29] Mmm. And if it's in the church then the altar is where communion happens and the blood and the bread is
[00:15:37] Consumption of the sacred in the Jewish home the table is where you sanctify the wine
[00:15:43] Where you cut the bread where you come together as a community to have communion
[00:15:49] So the evolution of religious practice from animal sacrifice to whatever brisket
[00:15:56] To sharing bread in a ritual sense is a very important evolution
[00:16:02] Yeah, and the design principles that make a Passover table or a or an Easter
[00:16:09] feast Muslim iftar a
[00:16:12] Holy meal by any tradition and again, I'll speak about the tradition. I know which is the Jewish
[00:16:18] The table is the place where the sacred social contract is
[00:16:25] constantly renewed
[00:16:27] Mmm, and the rituals matter
[00:16:30] Right, it matters that you start off with the first course and you go to soup and if you ask Kenazi
[00:16:35] There's gefilte fish and if you're sardine
[00:16:38] Etc. It matters that these are the ritual foods
[00:16:40] It matters that these are the plates that you take out every year for Passover
[00:16:45] It matters that these are the songs the wisdom of our ancestors to provide these blueprints
[00:16:52] for
[00:16:54] historical and mythic narratives that are
[00:16:57] Grounded in the consumption of food
[00:17:01] Is profound yeah, that's so much you unpack there because it's a ritual. It's a
[00:17:07] well-designed ritual it ties with our basic bodily needs and our basic
[00:17:14] Sensations it's communal
[00:17:17] Right, it's it you can't you don't usually set the table for yourself
[00:17:21] You set it for a group of people which is something that's very Jewish and so
[00:17:27] It sounds because you later there's many things that you rebelled against the young man
[00:17:33] It sounds like there was before that a sense of really loving something that was part of that life
[00:17:40] Would is that a yeah 100% I spent a great deal of time and energy
[00:17:46] rebelling against the Orthodox
[00:17:48] Zionist patriarchal
[00:17:53] Loving home I grew up with to find my own way. I came out as queer and my teens
[00:18:00] Realized that Jewish law as it is verbatim is a challenge to say the least and found other ways to
[00:18:08] question my values vis-a-vis those of the home and society I grew up with and
[00:18:13] The process of not throwing the baby with a bathwater but figuring out what matters and what kindles me and what I want to
[00:18:22] tweak and mix and match to be of relevance continues to evolve my Shabbat is not exactly that of
[00:18:30] My my
[00:18:32] Orthodox family in Israel, but so much is the same and I just want to say something you were talking about setting the table
[00:18:37] one of the ways that I stayed both
[00:18:40] sane and am used during the first few months of
[00:18:44] COVID I live alone in my home and Harlem my children are elsewhere in Manhattan
[00:18:49] My mother is in Israel, but I would set the table for myself every night with an
[00:18:56] apkin and
[00:18:58] I was like no, we're not gonna sit in front of the computer
[00:19:01] I mean, maybe I'll see if on the computer
[00:19:03] I'll put the Mac on the on the dining room table, but you're gonna set you're gonna eat like a mensch
[00:19:09] Yeah, and then Shabbat I very quickly realized that a lot of people at home alone
[00:19:14] And we can't eat together. We can't have Shabbat dinner together
[00:19:17] So we created this thing called Shabbasics, which was basically a half hour Friday night zoom
[00:19:24] Where we got people
[00:19:26] Wherever they were at home light candles in front of the screens
[00:19:30] Raise a glass of wine break some bread share what's on their menu
[00:19:34] And then those who wanted stayed on for another hour to just eat together
[00:19:39] Across the screens so that the ritual of eating together on Shabbat is maintained. Yeah
[00:19:46] just for the sake of not being alone and
[00:19:49] it was
[00:19:50] sad and stunning and
[00:19:52] In many ways continues as COVID continues
[00:19:56] Yeah, we had COVID the first Passover was under quarantine
[00:20:02] Couldn't get away more than a hundred yards from your house and
[00:20:06] And very naturally everybody moved to zoom of course, we were gonna still do it
[00:20:11] It wasn't a question of not doing it. It was just a question of how to technologically see each other
[00:20:17] And I guess I was cuz I'm also a single man
[00:20:21] Then then I had my parents together my sister and her husband and their son together
[00:20:26] And they all had more fancy meals than I did but I had a bottle of wine and
[00:20:32] And we've shared the table this way and I think millions of people did it right like it's on pass
[00:20:37] Millions of course you're gonna do that. Of course, you're not gonna give up being together
[00:20:41] Time will tell and I'm sure sociologists are on it as we are still in COVID in various phases
[00:20:49] What will be the ramification of this acceleration of the virtual digital?
[00:20:55] creeping into our erotic lives into our ritual lives into our
[00:21:02] Every aspect of our lives for better and for worse and it's something that my team and I
[00:21:08] Extremely interested by we're now planning the next season of the high holy days
[00:21:12] We usually have three thousand people in person and for the last last year was
[00:21:19] Completely virtual this year. We're going for a hybrid, but we're trying to think what does it look like moving forward?
[00:21:24] What is it gonna look like for our children who are now teens and younger who are?
[00:21:30] Digital natives, but also now scarred by this
[00:21:34] Experience so the design of our ritual life and social life thinking
[00:21:40] Into the future with a combination of virtual and in-person
[00:21:44] I dare say this is gonna be part of who we are for the rest of our lives
[00:21:48] Yeah, that's that seems reasonable. I wonder if you've seen this as this special news
[00:21:53] Netflix special from Bo Burnham called inside and now he's a young comedian who also a musician and he is very successful
[00:22:02] Before COVID he was I started on YouTube and then recently came out with this a Netflix special describing his life
[00:22:09] Locked inside and he's deteriorating
[00:22:12] Mental health and still finding humor about it
[00:22:15] He and he has a song about
[00:22:17] Face timing with his mom and and the song about sexting and the song about just like how this
[00:22:22] Weird deer that we've all had and and it's it's wonderful. It's so insightful. It's so funny
[00:22:28] I and I think I'll check it out. Thank you captures this last year, but you had your own part of your
[00:22:34] Self-discovery and part of leaving that house
[00:22:37] And it's a very a very ancient
[00:22:40] Rubinical dynasty that you come from and still to this day the chief rabbi of Israel today
[00:22:46] Right is
[00:22:48] Your first cousin and you had an uncle that was a previous chief rabbi
[00:22:53] And by the way as I was researching this I found out that Benny Lau is also related to you who's he's my brother
[00:23:00] Yeah, yeah, brother and someone I've been following for a long time with his 929 project
[00:23:06] and in various points writing very sensible things in the name of Judaism on politics and
[00:23:13] Great voice super important voice and coming from those roots of both really strong Orthodox rabbis
[00:23:20] And then discovering yourself through theater and through through art and through drag. Tell me more about that. That's
[00:23:27] It sounds like a it sounds like this a rush of
[00:23:32] Experimentation and as designers really like experimentation
[00:23:35] We like to emerge from something and try many different things so where is that is that a
[00:23:41] Process of self-discovery that I would love to hear more about that
[00:23:45] Sure, it's absolutely a process that
[00:23:48] It's ongoing
[00:23:49] I can say that a very pivotal moment in my memory that you will relate to because of our shared Israeli
[00:23:55] legacy and ancestry and
[00:23:57] And relevance in
[00:23:59] 1995 I was living in Jerusalem. I was involved in various
[00:24:04] Education and cultural theater. I was interested in storytelling in some aspect and
[00:24:09] Education looking I was in my mid 20s and there was a night where the Israeli Prime Minister Yitzhak Rabin was murdered
[00:24:16] assassinated by a young Jewish man who came from a very
[00:24:21] similar background to mind a religious Zionist Orthodox background and he basically
[00:24:26] claimed his right to do what he did
[00:24:30] by God and by
[00:24:32] Scripture and to prevent Yitzhak Rabin from
[00:24:36] Turning parts of the land of Israel to the Palestinians and to defending
[00:24:40] Jewish future by murdering a fellow Jew murdering a human being
[00:24:45] No, and I remember that night. I wrote a lot about it and the following days that happened
[00:24:51] Israel was in deep shock and
[00:24:54] for me what kept coming was the
[00:24:58] Narrative the legend the story of the master story of the binding of Isaac from the book of Genesis
[00:25:05] Where?
[00:25:06] Abraham here as a call in his head
[00:25:09] Attributed to God to bind his beloved child and offer him as a sacrifice to God and
[00:25:15] Abraham takes Yitzhak Isaac and binds him in at the last minute
[00:25:20] Places the kid with a lamb and here's a voice and that human sacrifice is
[00:25:27] Prevented and Isaac is traumatized to this day as are we his descendants
[00:25:33] But there's a moment of evolution a paradigm shift
[00:25:36] But when he got a meal killed Yitzhak Rabin all that I could think of was like and now
[00:25:42] The binding of Isaac was successful. This was the sequel here is a man
[00:25:48] Quoting these scriptures that the land belongs to us the children of Abraham not to them other children of Abraham and
[00:25:55] That God or rabbis or whatever said to him and he did it
[00:25:59] He followed a divine commandment and he came from a place of religious literacy knowledge and empowerment
[00:26:05] He felt empowered in the name of the myth and the story to do what he did and I remember thinking to myself
[00:26:11] I come from the same background. I have similar
[00:26:15] Privileges of knowing these scriptures and knowing these texts, but I'm taking them in a very different direction
[00:26:22] Which is humanitarian and liberal and progressive and peace-loving and not
[00:26:29] Fundamentalistic so it's my job like that of other people to combat you got a meal and his rabbis and
[00:26:36] comrades by
[00:26:38] Taking Judaism to another place equally legitimate, right? And I understood that my job is not to
[00:26:45] So much deal with the laws but with the stories to be a better storyteller to deeply examine
[00:26:52] What stories we are telling ourselves?
[00:26:54] And how we are telling those stories so we can educate future generations
[00:26:59] not to take the law into their own hands and to focus on these
[00:27:07] Narrow-minded fear-based trauma-driven narratives of us versus them and either or but find a
[00:27:15] Deeper and higher and kinder way of both in coexistence and humanity
[00:27:21] Serving us better so that night for me was a kind of I won't say a wake-up call
[00:27:26] But it was a very strong drive to focus on storytelling
[00:27:30] The metaphor that I use at the time was that if Judaism or Israeli
[00:27:35] Judaism is a car that's driving down the highway
[00:27:38] Way too far a speed and about to crash
[00:27:41] What you need to do is not change the color of the car
[00:27:45] What you need to do is figure out what's the fuel and who's driving it?
[00:27:48] Yeah, and that that those are the stories that contain the values that we live by
[00:27:55] So that for me was a decision to focus on the stories. I we are telling how we tell them that I want to be
[00:28:03] Working with Jewish storytelling that led me to theater that led me to theater that mixed the weekly
[00:28:10] Ceremony in every synagogue where we recite the Torah
[00:28:14] this
[00:28:16] constant rerun of scriptures and thinking how do we do a better job of challenging this bronze-age scripture with its
[00:28:25] Social problems such as
[00:28:27] homophobia and annihilation of the other and misogyny and
[00:28:32] Slavery and etc. How do we talk back to the text?
[00:28:36] So that led me to this theatrical exploration of
[00:28:40] Site-specific theater or the challenges the Jewish mythology and eventually that led me to drag because I
[00:28:47] as somebody who was exploring my sexuality and my my voice
[00:28:52] Found something very liberating in drag
[00:28:54] I could do and be and say things with a wig and with high heels and with this altered persona that I am I high felt
[00:29:03] discomfort saying and
[00:29:05] Over time that drag persona became scaffolding that was no longer necessary
[00:29:10] I was able to say the critical things. I wanted to say in my voice
[00:29:15] Yeah, and that led me eventually to ticking on the rabbinette without losing the sense of the theatrical and the and
[00:29:24] Storytelling is the core of the project here of reclamation and repair
[00:29:29] No, no, there's a lot to unpack there, but I think every
[00:29:33] Or I think many men can identify
[00:29:37] Themselves with feeling very restricted in a certain masculine role and feeling liberated
[00:29:44] if you're in a situation like in poor aim or in where you can explore and be free of it and
[00:29:50] Yeah, no, I think it's sounds like I would want to try that at some point
[00:29:54] but but from the context of going back to what you said about a rabbin's murder and
[00:30:00] the
[00:30:02] the Jewish niche so I have a I had a
[00:30:05] Professor in and my master is a lot more golling. I don't know if you know him. He also studies, you know him
[00:30:11] Okay, so he he said and he's in conversations with a lot of Jewish leaders
[00:30:16] From many many different sects many different types. He said specifically to the religious Zionists
[00:30:25] You came from the older generation you came from
[00:30:31] Western democracies and
[00:30:33] You were also religious and you found a way to balance both of these things like the civil rights
[00:30:40] The human rights of democracy values with the Judaism, but when you educated your kids
[00:30:47] You just took one side for granted. You just said oh, of course. Yeah, human rights. Oh, of course democracy
[00:30:55] the rights of the other and certain things that are obvious and
[00:30:59] But you emphasize a certain kind of religion without giving that background without giving that without emphasizing
[00:31:07] The democratic values and as a result you have a you have a generation
[00:31:12] I'm and I'm quoting him
[00:31:14] I don't know how true this is but where he claimed there is essentially a generation that had more moderate more
[00:31:21] Democratic parents
[00:31:23] But they themselves from morning till night just studied
[00:31:27] Pure scripture and religion and religious Zionist dogma without
[00:31:32] The rest of it without the civil side without the democracy side the right there the individual rights side
[00:31:39] Does that resonate with you or that does resonate look we're not we're in the middle of a very
[00:31:45] Very
[00:31:46] Complex moment where there is again a paradigm shift in what is Zionist and what is religious I
[00:31:56] to
[00:31:58] Completely believe that we are in the middle of a process that will be known historically as post patriarchy
[00:32:04] After thousands of years in which the West certainly the monotheistic traditions have revered the divine as
[00:32:11] Godhead that is male
[00:32:14] and revered males as the one to be holding the religious and
[00:32:19] political authority it's been a hundred years of
[00:32:24] Challenging that assumption
[00:32:25] Hundred years is not a long time in human history
[00:32:28] Right, so we're seeing a shift. We're seeing a shift as far as a women's leadership and LGBTQ
[00:32:35] Participation we're seeing a shift in the theology
[00:32:38] That the big old man on the beat with a beard on the throne is not necessarily what people think about with the divine
[00:32:44] We're seeing it in so many ways that we're just in the middle of
[00:32:49] Now that has impact on these patriarchal structures as far as hierarchy and as far as the dichotomies that we inherited
[00:32:58] they include the political reality of
[00:33:02] Jewish people in the land of Israel who are back in the land after thousands of years
[00:33:08] some of us with the old vision and some of us with other revisions and
[00:33:14] What I think is a historical invitation of deep mythic proportions to do right
[00:33:21] By this binary either or patriarchal Abrahamic structure and come up with a new paradigm now. That's hard changes hard
[00:33:29] mmm and
[00:33:31] PTSD as we now all like to talk about is a reality factor in Israel and in Palestine
[00:33:38] We are the descendants of people who
[00:33:41] Suffered the Nakba and suffered the Shoah the Holocaust my father was a Holocaust survivor
[00:33:46] My mother lived through the Holocaust. I have friends in Ramallah and Gaza and
[00:33:52] East and West Jerusalem whose parents and grandparents went through
[00:33:56] horrific atrocities in the 1940s
[00:33:59] Around the Nakba and after it's still alive
[00:34:03] So the react the response of religious Zionism to say you don't matter and it's all about us cause God says so in the Torah
[00:34:11] Okay, that's a legitimate response. It's grounded in history, but it's not helpful
[00:34:18] Right, and it's the same for our fundamentalist friends in Islam
[00:34:23] Well, we're seeing now in Israel that they're more younger people think goodness was saying what's the practical way for us to live and not kill each other and
[00:34:32] With all due respect to the scriptures we inherited
[00:34:34] What can we do about reinterpreting them differently and finding the sweet spot in between the religious Zionism I grew up with
[00:34:43] That is now represented in the Knesset by Itamar Ben-Gvir
[00:34:47] Hmm who is a racist thug?
[00:34:50] Yeah, I don't think we want to go down the rabbit hole of Israeli politics right now, right?
[00:34:55] I think there's a big there's there's a bigger question here
[00:34:58] There's the bigger question about how do we as human beings honor the traditions we come from
[00:35:06] Understand where they serve us understand where they fail us and do the delicate work of
[00:35:13] redesigning them to fit our shifting realities
[00:35:17] That is true for Americans right now. We're dealing with the horrific legacy of
[00:35:24] indigenous annihilation and slavery and racism
[00:35:28] That is a hundred percent part of being an American no matter who you are as an American
[00:35:34] Yeah, that process of reckoning of repair of reparation
[00:35:39] Is critical for the sake of a healthy future in this country. Otherwise, we're just recycling
[00:35:46] that same trauma
[00:35:48] and
[00:35:49] in some sectors in this country that is clear and that is being
[00:35:53] a commitment
[00:35:56] For a long term process of repair and in many other sectors. It is something that we're going to continue denying
[00:36:03] Right because change is hard and accountability and truth
[00:36:08] And reconciliation is hard
[00:36:11] That is true all over the world. It is certainly true in israel and palestine
[00:36:15] Where 63 children were killed in Gaza
[00:36:20] And two children were killed in israel and this latest skirmish
[00:36:24] And israel went back to business a day after
[00:36:27] Yeah, but the moment ben and jerry's threatened to not sell ice cream in the west bank
[00:36:33] Everybody's starting to talk about the occupation right there is a preference of people who suffer personal trauma
[00:36:40] or nations that go through
[00:36:43] generations long trauma
[00:36:45] to
[00:36:46] Not deal with it
[00:36:48] But the only way we will fix and there will be a paradigm shift is there will be repair
[00:36:53] Is it happening in germany to an extent? Is it happening in south africa?
[00:36:58] Somewhat it's required on a deep level. So my hope is that maybe not for every jew on the planet, but for more and more of us
[00:37:06] Taking the patriarchal legacy we inherited
[00:37:11] And customizing it to be egalitarian liberal
[00:37:16] queer friendly
[00:37:17] Earth friendly
[00:37:19] Radically relevant to who we are and who we are becoming
[00:37:23] Is the order of the day
[00:37:25] That's not everybody's cup of tea
[00:37:27] And hopefully it won't be a bloody conflict between us
[00:37:32] but there are
[00:37:34] Ways in which we have to be honest with who we are
[00:37:37] and
[00:37:38] That includes the understanding that there are people that includes my cousins and nephews and
[00:37:44] Close kin who see things very differently than me
[00:37:48] Yeah, to respect them in a pluralistic way is tough, but that really is the invitation
[00:37:54] Yeah
[00:37:55] Yeah, it seems to be everywhere these days and where the
[00:38:01] The easy thing is to attack and judge the other and it's even easier when you're
[00:38:08] When you feel moral superiority over them and then the hard and necessary thing is to
[00:38:15] Try to understand and try to find common ground
[00:38:18] But engage
[00:38:19] I'm engaged
[00:38:21] Yeah, so uh
[00:38:24] I hear you there. So I want to talk a little bit
[00:38:27] I want to hear more about storytelling and lab show a little bit of history
[00:38:33] And then I'm very interested in all these
[00:38:35] The innovative practices that that you came up with that you design into into this community
[00:38:41] Because I think that's where that's where the designer in me really wakes up
[00:38:45] So tell me how this practice started. I know you had this
[00:38:49] You told us about this realization that narrative is really key
[00:38:52] Yeah, sure
[00:38:54] So if I go too long, just stop me because this is something I'm very passionate about and I can go on for days
[00:39:00] After this labin assassination mid 90s. I was looking for my own path
[00:39:06] And through a lot of ways it brought me to new york where I worked at a synagogue
[00:39:11] as an educator and as a teacher and my portfolio was to engage
[00:39:16] Jewish adults in Jewish literacy through the arts and culture
[00:39:21] And what I realized was that I had all these like really funky awesome
[00:39:26] offerings and sessions and classes on sex and intimacy and
[00:39:31] rainmaking and like
[00:39:34] philosophy and
[00:39:35] Boober and bagels and you got the usual suspects and the majority of people did not
[00:39:41] get engaged
[00:39:42] With these forms of literacy and my motto was like if you're going to want to change you need to know
[00:39:48] In order to know you need to learn and then one saturday. I was at the synagogue and I
[00:39:56] participated
[00:39:57] Slash observed the religious service
[00:40:01] of saturday morning and central to that service is
[00:40:05] The ritual in which we take out the Torah scroll and we read out loud from the Torah
[00:40:12] Now
[00:40:13] Some of us who are familiar with Jewish life
[00:40:16] Know it well most jews who've had a barba mitzvah rite of passage participated in this ritual
[00:40:22] It is conducted every saturday in synagogues near you
[00:40:26] And it's been going on for over 2000 years now that saturday morning something in me shifted
[00:40:33] I watched a theatrical performance taking place in a sanctuary where there were a few hundred people
[00:40:40] Where for about an hour
[00:40:42] A text was performed
[00:40:44] From a scroll from a book
[00:40:48] With a particular musical incantation
[00:40:50] The text itself that saturday morning was from the book of genesis was the story of joseph
[00:40:55] And his brothers and dreams and whoa human trafficking
[00:41:00] Interesting stuff people come up and down to bless and interact the rabbis
[00:41:06] Explain, sermonize
[00:41:08] But for the most part this hour-long ceremonial storytelling was dull
[00:41:14] And i'm being kind
[00:41:16] And I sat there and thought to myself
[00:41:18] What's wrong with this picture right here?
[00:41:20] I am on a thursday evening teaching this story in a salon environment and
[00:41:26] I get some seniors and some people who want a free cup of coffee showing up
[00:41:31] But saturday morning you got the jews and the pews. I got prime time
[00:41:35] And there's a ceremony where we're telling scripture and it's not engaging and this very story of joseph is being
[00:41:43] Performed on the stage on broadway as a musical right now on a saturday matinee and people are paying a hundred bucks to see it
[00:41:53] So I went to the rabbis and I said I want to change the
[00:41:57] Paradigm here give me
[00:41:59] saturday morning main space
[00:42:02] To reimagine how we
[00:42:04] Tell Torah how we talk Torah how we take our scriptures and make them into something relevant political
[00:42:11] emotional psychological meaningful engaging fun
[00:42:15] They said you can't because saturday morning is when we usually have our barb at mitzvahs and
[00:42:20] It's a whole ordeal and the families come and you can't but here's a saturday morning in april
[00:42:26] Where you can take over the saturday morning service with a Torah service. That's the middle of the leviticus
[00:42:31] It's all about leprosy. Nobody wants it go for it
[00:42:35] I went researching what is the anthropological
[00:42:39] History of the Torah service of this ritual that is conducted in every synagogue where every week for
[00:42:45] Throughout the course of a year. There's the rerun
[00:42:50] repeat of the five books of moses and
[00:42:53] The brief highlight of what I discovered was that this is one of the oldest
[00:42:58] ceremonial offerings in the jewish
[00:43:01] Uh menu that has been going on and off for 2500 years
[00:43:07] That it is the core educational
[00:43:11] component of jewish literacy
[00:43:13] And that until a thousand years ago for about 1500 years every time the Torah was publicly proclaimed in public space
[00:43:22] Originally in the marketplace only later in houses of worship. It was always done in split screen
[00:43:28] You would have somebody chanting the Hebrew in beautiful musical notation and alongside you have somebody
[00:43:36] translating live
[00:43:38] Into the language of the time and place
[00:43:41] You had live subtitles
[00:43:44] And the subtitles known as targum or tarjum
[00:43:48] Translation really is an interpretation because you can never translate literally. It is always a process of interpretation
[00:43:56] The people who did the translation were known as
[00:44:00] Those who make understanding happen later on metulge manim interpreters
[00:44:06] and those people were the loud speaker or the
[00:44:10] captions or the bridge between the scripture and
[00:44:14] current day
[00:44:16] And it's a tradition that died out about a thousand years ago for a bunch of socioeconomic religious reasons
[00:44:23] I'd never heard of them and I was blown away. I'm like, oh, this is exactly what I want to do
[00:44:27] I don't want to be a rabbi exactly. I'm not sure I'm an actor perfect. Let's be the translator
[00:44:32] What happens if you take scripture?
[00:44:34] And you bring it to the 21st century as a performance
[00:44:38] There's lots of translations printed in English and any other language. You can sit in the synagogue
[00:44:43] Listen to the Hebrew being chanted watch it being chanted and follow along with the english translation
[00:44:49] But what if it's theater? What if you actually see the english being played out?
[00:44:53] What if it isn't a dry translation but actually a first person narrative that challenges the text?
[00:44:59] What if it becomes interactive?
[00:45:02] so my fuses were on it and then
[00:45:06] That spring I brought
[00:45:08] The chapters in Leviticus about leprosy to life
[00:45:12] By being the translator having doing a lot of research
[00:45:15] And I talked about hiv. It wasn't about leprosy as a biblical
[00:45:19] disease of infection. It was about the modern day. This is
[00:45:23] 1999
[00:45:24] HIV was still is a thing talk about the fear of infection and the psychological aspect of being quarantined
[00:45:32] And people came to me that Saturday morning after services and said what the hell was that?
[00:45:38] I never heard Torah the same way. I never realized that it speaks to my personal human experience
[00:45:43] I sat riveted and I never looked at the book once. What is this?
[00:45:48] So
[00:45:49] That very early experience at congregation Bene Jesharan in the Upper West Side whose pioneering
[00:45:57] Wonderful rabbis gave me the permission to keep on exploring this methodology
[00:46:01] That was the very beginning of storytelling and that that gave me the idea that what we can do
[00:46:07] Is bring back this profession hijack synagogues later. We said upgrades in a gox because
[00:46:13] 9 11 and then entrain people to be these translators so that future generations
[00:46:19] Are permitted to talk back to the text
[00:46:22] And to challenge the homophobic to challenge the colonial to challenge the
[00:46:27] Racist to challenge the misogynistic and say, okay. Here's the Torah. It's written. I'm not denying it
[00:46:33] but I'm talking back to it
[00:46:35] And this is the core of Jewish literacy. You have the Torah the teaching is comprised of two
[00:46:42] Aspects the written Torah Torah she became that's the pdf
[00:46:47] That's what's in the scroll
[00:46:49] That's the canon, but then you have Torah she bought pay the written Torah the oral Torah
[00:46:54] That's the google doc
[00:46:56] And that keeps on updated every generation and the translator is the mouth literally of balpe
[00:47:04] The mouth that talks back
[00:47:06] To the ancient text and updates
[00:47:09] Challenges questions wrestles. I created this Jewish ritual theater company called store telling that summer in 99
[00:47:18] It still goes on we understood after about a decade of exploration
[00:47:22] That the best place to put this methodology of translation to practice
[00:47:27] Is in the coming of age ceremony of what we call be mitzvah because that's gender neutral
[00:47:33] Where young people of Jewish faith and those who love them
[00:47:37] Come to perform this ritual
[00:47:40] And it's alive in a much more common way around this ritual
[00:47:44] Then the people who would go to a synagogue on a Saturday morning. That's a much smaller number
[00:47:49] So from a bandwidth point of view, we are now in the process of investing much more extensive training
[00:47:57] Of people who train young people to be mitzvahs
[00:48:00] Not to chant the Torah necessarily because for most young Jews that is not a skill
[00:48:04] That would use throughout their lives. They don't know Hebrew and they might not chant it in trope
[00:48:09] But to be critical thinkers and to talk back to scripture and to understand the tension between our ancient inherited Judaism
[00:48:16] And who we're becoming that's a tool that would use throughout life to become mavens
[00:48:22] So store telling is now as we speak in this like next phase of being adapted as a training institute and as a methodology
[00:48:30] That will hopefully mostly be helped in in engaging young people and all people in talking back to the text
[00:48:38] That's amazing. And you and you call that the maven method because they in in the book in the bible in the book of
[00:48:43] Nechemiah Nechemiah, you have the description of the very first Torah service in history
[00:48:48] It we know where it happens
[00:48:49] We know when it happens and it describes the
[00:48:53] Hamevinim at Haam la toa this profession has been produced for the first time
[00:48:57] And you speak Hebrew at Hamevin Ibrahim
[00:49:00] But most of our listeners and people on the planet don't the word
[00:49:04] The title the profession is those who understand
[00:49:09] Those who make understanding happen. That is the word maven it later became Yiddish
[00:49:14] Maven
[00:49:15] And nowadays a few blocks away from my house. There's the maven cafe
[00:49:20] And there is a fashion maven and bagel mavens and maven is an American word somebody who was in who's a know it all
[00:49:27] But it really what it means is a translator
[00:49:30] Who makes sure that the ancient is being adapted
[00:49:34] to modern need
[00:49:37] Amazing and you actually train these mavens. I'm curious because
[00:49:42] This is where it gets
[00:49:44] Really interesting where it's not just about having these experiences, but it's about training people to create more and more of these experiences
[00:49:52] What do you teach them? What's it? What is it look? We are in the process of
[00:49:55] re-evaluating and revising the training
[00:49:58] We created a curriculum and we created a pedagogy
[00:50:02] I started off by creating a 12 step
[00:50:05] Manual for how to do storytelling. We called it Torah rehab
[00:50:09] And then we realized that 12 step is too much. So we sized it down to five steps
[00:50:14] There are just five steps how to create a storytelling using the maven method
[00:50:18] We work with people who have some kind of qualification
[00:50:22] sufficient Hebrew or Jewish
[00:50:25] Background we work with clergy Jewish Christian other and we've tried a lot of different trainings over the years and we're like honing
[00:50:32] In on what is the sweet spot of who would be the best person to be trained?
[00:50:36] But we ideally it's a week-long training of that again might might adapt. We're using some of the
[00:50:43] Classical tools for how to do Torah translation
[00:50:47] That are found in Jewish literature in the Talmud. There are about 19 different rules
[00:50:52] For how the Torah translator must conduct himself or herself
[00:50:56] For instance, when you're standing publicly on stage and somebody is reading from the Torah scroll
[00:51:01] The translator the maven may not look into the scroll
[00:51:05] You've got to be oral
[00:51:07] So it will never seem to the audience that what you're saying in English is in the Hebrew scroll
[00:51:15] Right, that's a rule. You got to know it by heart
[00:51:17] But you can't slouch you have to stand straight because you are representing scripture
[00:51:21] It's line by line one line Hebrew one line English one line Hebrew
[00:51:26] One line English that has to do with some kind of both of the vocal ability for the maven
[00:51:31] But also our understanding of oh, I get it. It's ping-pong ancient spoken
[00:51:36] So there's a lot of those rules plus we've brought in modern stagecraft and
[00:51:41] Improv and sometimes it's rap and sometimes people use video or they use music
[00:51:46] But the idea is how do we become the mouths
[00:51:50] Of this tradition and not just neutral transmitters
[00:51:54] But actual thoughtful wrestlers with it people have different styles
[00:51:59] And again, like I said right now it is primarily used to train those
[00:52:05] Trainers of 13 year olds now there is a we can talk about that for a long time because at the age of 13
[00:52:13] Being a public speaker is not necessarily your best feature and I at 13 started heavily
[00:52:20] Right for me might be mitzvah my bar mitzvah was a whole ride of passage because I had to speak
[00:52:25] So we're using it as a way not just to think about how do you
[00:52:29] Relate to scripture and create your own script, but what does it look like for you to be a thoughtful speaker?
[00:52:36] To think of what you want to say and do it less
[00:52:39] And have the ability to be a public presenter
[00:52:43] Per different children's and adults abilities. So it's about a lot of different things. Yeah
[00:52:49] It sounds it sounds delightful. I actually had a pretty good bar mitzvah teacher
[00:52:55] Who took the time to explain the story to me? He was a reform rabbi and he took the time to explain to me
[00:53:02] The idea is behind it and I remember as a completely secular kid
[00:53:07] I've come from a very secular family never took religion very seriously
[00:53:12] But during that process I did and that is the only
[00:53:17] Real connection that I've ever had but with Judaism beyond having being forced to study it at school
[00:53:23] I am pretty uninteresting. Can you hear me? Well, this is sounds like your
[00:53:28] I'm delighted to hear about your experience Iran. It is maybe not completely unusual. You lucked out
[00:53:34] Um, I will say that one of my plans for the next few years
[00:53:38] Which is why I was so excited when you invited me to think about design in this context of ritual life
[00:53:44] Is to really take this to the next level including Israel
[00:53:48] Where to invite Israelis to translate Torah from Jewish into Israeli
[00:53:54] from ancient Hebrew into modern Hebrew is a
[00:54:00] An audacious
[00:54:02] And a political one and one that I'm as I find
[00:54:06] I'm finding out more is very needed
[00:54:09] There's a lot of request for making Judaism meaningful in a modern liberal progressive
[00:54:15] Way and getting young people engaged with this
[00:54:18] Way that that empowers so hopefully in the next few years this this training institute will be
[00:54:25] Reestablished as a bigger offering both here in the states and in Israel
[00:54:29] That's very cool
[00:54:32] So
[00:54:34] I want to dive into a little bit of the more of the design aspects
[00:54:39] But before that maybe introduce us to lab show. What is lab show?
[00:54:43] Well, sure and and how does storytelling connect with it? What's that? Yeah connection totally
[00:54:50] So that's a really fun story. So
[00:54:52] Storytelling is a theater company was founded in 1999. I was young. I was ambitious
[00:54:58] I knew nothing about fundraising or managing anything it quickly became this artistic collective
[00:55:05] of people who wanted to do it and we
[00:55:07] Started doing storytelling. We took the Torah to task. We traveled all over the united states
[00:55:13] I was the artistic director
[00:55:15] And what happened alongside was that a community formed a community that started gathering for Shabbat
[00:55:22] dinners or invented our own version of yonki pool and we were a
[00:55:27] collective of queer and
[00:55:30] Jewish and not necessarily Jewish and not everybody just like a really great group
[00:55:35] And over the course of close to a decade this collective attracted a community and an audience
[00:55:43] And we were doing theater and creating storytelling and educating and training
[00:55:49] But also we're crafting our own ritual space
[00:55:52] And by the time we had our own yonki pool in like 2006 or something
[00:55:58] And there were a thousand people there
[00:56:00] And the methodology we used for translating toa in challenging the grid
[00:56:06] Were the ones we used for translating and challenging prayer
[00:56:10] And thinking of how do we not just translate the Hebrew prayers into whatever English?
[00:56:15] But how do we question what's there and how do we make this work for people who might be agnostic or
[00:56:22] People who are not Jewish or for those of us in interfaith relationships. And how do we
[00:56:27] Design the religious ritual into an interactive theatrical engaging experience
[00:56:35] that
[00:56:36] is like
[00:56:39] Nothing any of us have been to before but that excites us
[00:56:43] So we were experimenting and then there are different versions of the chronology there
[00:56:49] But at some point around 2007 2008 we realized that we are evolving from a theater company
[00:56:56] That has like a side industry of creating ritual and ritual space to actually a ritual congregation
[00:57:04] that is grounded in theater and
[00:57:07] We took a year to
[00:57:10] Focus group and brainstorm and be in a lot of different conversations
[00:57:14] And out of that came the realization that we're going to morph
[00:57:18] And we're going to become a a congregation and lab shul
[00:57:22] Was my suggestion. I was reading John Dewey at the time and really interested in educational reform. So
[00:57:29] Lab is the lab and shul is like the Yiddish word for like a one-room school house where everything happens
[00:57:35] So we went with lab shul as just like a placeholder while we were brainstorming and it stuck
[00:57:40] And and I also decided I was nearing 40 at the time
[00:57:44] That in order for me to be the leader of this community and to be really a change agent from within
[00:57:51] That I will to everybody's surprise take on the rabbit and actually go to school and be ordained as a rabbi
[00:57:59] So I took the next few years at the jewish theological seminary here in new york city to become ordained as a conservative rabbi
[00:58:07] While we were attempt while we were trying out and those were crazy years
[00:58:11] But by 2016 I was ordained
[00:58:15] And lab shul is now in its tween years
[00:58:19] And we are still experimenting what it's like to be a lab with the storytelling methodology at the heart of what we do
[00:58:27] Whether we translate scripture prayer whether we adapt weddings funerals
[00:58:33] Life cycle moments and even covet really thinking how do we translate what we've known into
[00:58:39] Helpful and applicable offerings that make people's lives better
[00:58:45] Yeah
[00:58:46] Incredible I like the lab. It's experimental and it ties very beautifully into the design
[00:58:52] Sensibility that I'm trying to connect this with but before we go there. I wanted to say I love your tagline
[00:58:58] Which is everybody friendly artist driven god optional all ages. How could it be more perfect more open more exciting
[00:59:06] We're working on more
[00:59:08] We're working on working our way through a
[00:59:11] multi-year very invested
[00:59:13] process of being worthy of the title anti racist and we have pop up in our tagline as well
[00:59:21] COVID made that irrelevant. We don't have a building that was by design and each one of those titles really was very thoughtfully
[00:59:29] Crafted I will say that god optional that I came up with is something that we're
[00:59:34] thinking of how to rename
[00:59:36] Because what it really means is you can believe in god. You don't believe in god whatever you believe in god
[00:59:41] as love as life as essence as mystery as as
[00:59:46] as your higher self as
[00:59:49] Nature that's fine. It's metaphor and we don't want to be stuck to that same old notion of a hierarchy
[00:59:55] Of a transcendental judging god, but a lot of people misjudge or misinterpret what this god optional means
[01:00:02] So at some point we might rewrite it
[01:00:05] But in the lab sense of who we are it's constantly about exploring what again what we inherited
[01:00:13] And how it keeps shifting
[01:00:16] No, so I love this so
[01:00:19] I don't know if you have any
[01:00:22] direct relation to or direct connection to design thinking or design as a theory as a practice
[01:00:29] So I'll introduce design thinking so design thinking is this theory that was popularized in the stanford design school
[01:00:37] Which is now changing many institutions around the world from big businesses to governments
[01:00:43] And it breaks down the design process into five stages. So it starts with empathy
[01:00:48] empathize with a problem as a
[01:00:52] challenge
[01:00:53] Then define define the problem define what you're trying to solve
[01:00:57] Then then ideate which is essentially
[01:01:01] A process of divergence
[01:01:03] Many divergent ideas and then eventually convergence into a few solutions that actually
[01:01:08] Are worth trying then prototype
[01:01:11] Which means try this is the lab. This is why I connect with the lab build something that
[01:01:16] To try out and then test is the final stage
[01:01:19] And that's and then keep empathizing defining ideating prototyping testing until you have a solution that's stable
[01:01:26] Though I guess stability is not necessarily the goal
[01:01:29] So
[01:01:32] The first I so I guess the first question is do you recognize these stages in your own process in your own
[01:01:40] Journey
[01:01:41] Look, what's crazy? I'm immediately trying to see whether this works with a five step maven method
[01:01:46] Which is how we use we work with every
[01:01:50] Story to craft a new storytelling experience out of it. It's a stretch
[01:01:55] I can work on it
[01:01:56] But I love this. I'm as far as design from the very very get go of my work even before storytelling
[01:02:03] The visual design the marketing the packaging the aesthetics is so important to me
[01:02:11] I have I'm notorious in the storytelling lab show
[01:02:16] Universe for being an impossible and irate
[01:02:20] Um
[01:02:21] So to see when we're design. Yeah, no, I'm basically like every thing we do
[01:02:25] I need to work with the graphic designers and I'm like no this I want this and think and what can I say?
[01:02:31] I'm pretty good at it and I'm going to let go comes from the table
[01:02:34] I think aesthetics matter, but it's not just about the aesthetics. It's about seduction
[01:02:38] so many people are so
[01:02:41] Triggered
[01:02:43] I've always suggested allergic to religious life to Judaism to old school. So there's something about giving it a fresh surprising
[01:02:52] Seductive approach that actually oh wow you can do that. Okay
[01:02:57] So the empathy is where let's say we're looking at whatever Shabbat pass over yonkipoo and saying, okay
[01:03:04] Here's what this is about. It's important. It's meaningful. It's here to give us
[01:03:09] Let's let's define what the issue here. It's beautiful, but it doesn't work
[01:03:13] So what are we going to do in making yonkipoo applicable to young jews and those who love them for whom hebrou doesn't necessarily
[01:03:20] Resonate god is not a thing repentance is repugnant
[01:03:24] But the search for for exploration and reflection and community and being moved
[01:03:30] Is what we want so then we're going to ideate and we're going to try a whole bunch of different ways of taking that old product and tweaking it
[01:03:38] And then the prototype I'll say so here we are
[01:03:42] X years into trying our version of
[01:03:46] yonkipoo
[01:03:47] And we've been testing it some of it works some of it doesn't we're right now in the process of
[01:03:54] planning yonkipoo
[01:03:56] 2021 as a hybrid model of in-person and online
[01:04:00] With some of the ashkenazi traditions and sphatic traditions with leaders from different traditions with the levels of interactivity that
[01:04:09] We're keep pushing and
[01:04:13] I would say
[01:04:15] in some way
[01:04:17] That is exactly how we're working and I would love for it to be more
[01:04:21] Professionally thought of it certainly as we're thinking of the storytelling next year duration
[01:04:27] Sounds like I need to work with you or with somebody on like very very coherent design
[01:04:32] Thinking as we strategically plan the next phase
[01:04:36] Yeah, what I find is many people that I talk to that that are
[01:04:40] Making new things new original things and naturally follow this kind of path because there there is no other way
[01:04:47] And so the way that people write about design thinking and define it the way they
[01:04:52] Their way they define it is it's different from engineering thinking. It's different from scientific thinking
[01:04:59] Engineering thinking is you know where you want to go and you just have to figure out how to get there in in it's very
[01:05:05] And you know the subject matter you know the rules of the medium and you're just constructing something that works
[01:05:12] And here we don't know where we're going
[01:05:14] We know there's a problem and we need to build our way towards a solution
[01:05:18] And I love it and I see it everywhere now like a hammer that sees every problem as a nail
[01:05:23] But I'll make this an additional connection. So I know if you lend the botan's book about religion for atheists
[01:05:29] The school of life is a favorite. Yeah, yeah he
[01:05:33] So I have a signed copy. I went to see him live and I and I love this book and the book
[01:05:38] Basically started me on on the path to to my degree which is in religious studies
[01:05:43] And he talks about having secularized badly, right? Having
[01:05:47] gaps in secular life
[01:05:49] Where we don't really have good ways of dealing with birth death
[01:05:53] Love and marriage loneliness
[01:05:55] Old age dealing with trauma is on a communal level. And so I I want to hear your
[01:06:02] designer
[01:06:04] Take at these problems
[01:06:07] Do you see them as gaps that you're trying to feel or do you come at it more from a more of a
[01:06:14] Specific practice that you're trying to
[01:06:16] Workshop and make better. How do you think about the touch points with people's lives?
[01:06:22] So this goes back to something we said earlier that for me the bottom line of ritual or practice
[01:06:29] is not
[01:06:31] The preservation of Jewish
[01:06:34] But the
[01:06:36] Engagement with human so for instance a friend of mine lost his father last week
[01:06:42] complicated story complicated family
[01:06:46] Jewish not Jewish elder
[01:06:49] complicated
[01:06:51] They wanted a shiva they wanted the Jewish ceremony where you come together at home and mourn
[01:06:57] But it was pretty clear that this should not be or this would not benefit from having the usual
[01:07:03] Building blocks of a shiva that might include an evening service in whatever
[01:07:08] version of
[01:07:10] Contemplative worship. Yes, maybe a mourner's kadesh
[01:07:13] But this is not going to be a traditional shiva and so the understanding was it what this family needed what this person needed
[01:07:21] Was not the particular
[01:07:24] traditional context
[01:07:26] but a framework within which to mourn
[01:07:30] To bring family and friends into the sphere to not be alone
[01:07:35] And to honor his father's memory in some way
[01:07:39] so
[01:07:40] Partially on the phone with it with him and partially on the spot in the living room
[01:07:44] We crafted a one-hour ritual in the context of the three hour gathering
[01:07:49] Where obviously food was important and just socialization
[01:07:52] But there was like a one-hour ritual where
[01:07:56] It wasn't about it was using the traditional Jewish tools of shiva
[01:08:00] But tweaking and adjusting them to work for this particular family
[01:08:05] It had to have a beginning middle end
[01:08:09] There had to be a way of being in the liminal
[01:08:11] There had to be a way of like silencing the chatter and bringing ourselves into presence
[01:08:17] This is not a room of people who know each other and noise meditation are given
[01:08:20] But there's a way you can get people to be quiet. There's a way for letting him be
[01:08:25] Present and vulnerable and fragile
[01:08:28] There's a way to invite other people to share stories about the dead man without
[01:08:33] overtaking the room and there's like this navigation and facilitation
[01:08:38] With some poetry
[01:08:39] And at the very end we had handouts of the mourner's prayer the kadish
[01:08:43] With our english translation that is very user friendly and everybody friendly and all that and people were invited to just come and say
[01:08:50] Together it was a one-hour very moving meaningful ceremony
[01:08:54] That used the elements that we're familiar with between them to suit the situation as opposed to be a cookie cutter
[01:09:02] Yeah
[01:09:03] So i'm using that just as an example because this is really what drives me and my team and many others
[01:09:09] To consider every opportunity of a life cycle moment as an opportunity
[01:09:14] for growth
[01:09:16] And for meaning making what I when I start a ceremony
[01:09:20] Such as I did with this particular case in this home. I said look
[01:09:24] Ask yourselves 60 people in this room. Why are we here?
[01:09:30] My response yours might be different is we're here for three reasons
[01:09:36] Number one, we're here to honor the memory and the legacy of a human being who is now deceased
[01:09:44] Now maybe that helps the soul go up to heaven. I don't have data on that
[01:09:49] Maybe it's just honors the fact that this footprint has been left here for us to honor. Okay
[01:09:57] Second we hear the support the mourners his son and widow
[01:10:01] grandchildren
[01:10:03] Whatever we hear to support the mourners
[01:10:06] By letting them emote and not be alone and share their feelings and be held
[01:10:12] And third we're here to deal with our own anxiety around mortality
[01:10:17] We're here to come together as human beings honoring life and honoring death
[01:10:22] And taking the time in the middle of our day middle of our lives
[01:10:26] To come together as humans
[01:10:28] And do what humans do in every tradition in every culture
[01:10:32] celebrate life
[01:10:34] Learn from the deceased what we can do to learn life better and be there for each other
[01:10:40] Now there might be other reasons why you're here today
[01:10:43] Right that is the deceased was your boss and you have to show up or there's free food. Those are all legitimate reasons
[01:10:50] But once you frame it, you know, oh, right
[01:10:53] That's why I'm here
[01:10:55] I'm having a human experience
[01:10:57] And it's beyond my ego
[01:11:00] Yeah, it's not just utilitarian or practical
[01:11:03] So I find that all life cycle moments such as the ones you mentioned
[01:11:07] Once you frame them in this way
[01:11:10] They're about perpetuating our sense of well-being and they're allowing us to grow as people
[01:11:16] And then yes, I am at cousin Marty's bar mitzvah and it's boring as thing
[01:11:20] But oh, but that's why I'm here
[01:11:22] And hopefully if we do it, it's not boring etc. Etc. So it's really about the framing
[01:11:28] Of the why and it's the designing of the how
[01:11:33] Yeah, that makes me think of this book the art of gathering
[01:11:37] By yeah by Priya Parker. Yes. Yeah, my dear friend. Yes
[01:11:41] I'm in it actually
[01:11:42] Oh wonderful
[01:11:43] I read it, but I guess I didn't make the connection
[01:11:46] But it's it's all about how these gatherings work better when you have a purpose when you know what the purpose is
[01:11:52] wonderful book and so
[01:11:54] If if we look at secular life
[01:11:56] And I tend to and I know you're in the same position. I tend to compare Israel and the us a lot and
[01:12:03] One reason I'm in Israel now and not in the us after having lived in New York for nine years
[01:12:11] Is that the us feels to I don't want to say too individualistic, but too isolated people are too
[01:12:19] separate from each other and
[01:12:22] Uninvolved with each other's lives and people feel that's right in a very deep sense
[01:12:28] That everybody that the right that the right thing for everybody to be concerned with is their own life and and not much else
[01:12:34] And and this is comparatively everyone is different, of course, but in Israel there's much much more
[01:12:41] a percentage of everyone's mindset is much more to
[01:12:44] The collective endeavor and the collective trouble and the collective everything
[01:12:49] And as a result of that the us fell to me often like a lonely place
[01:12:55] Because even though I had many friends they were
[01:12:58] too self-involved to to actually feel like a community and
[01:13:04] So I wonder what you think about that and then what is what would be your advice
[01:13:10] For finding a tribe even in a place
[01:13:15] Like New York where it's filled with hyper individualists chasing their own career
[01:13:19] What are your thoughts about that?
[01:13:20] First of all, I resonate very deeply as an Israeli who's been here for 20 years and just spent seven weeks in Israel and
[01:13:29] It's no secret to those who know me and work with me my
[01:13:32] my trajectory to return to Israel if not full-time then a lot of my time is
[01:13:37] on the
[01:13:39] It's happening for all the reasons you've said I also miss my mother tongue you've read and there's something in me that
[01:13:45] In my 50s now i'm planning forward
[01:13:48] There's work. I want to be doing there and there's a part of my being that sings there in a
[01:13:53] deeper way
[01:13:55] resonates deeply
[01:13:56] I agree with you about the notion of the the rugged individualism of the American and
[01:14:02] The capitalistic notion of the consumer and the great deal of loneliness. I think kovid brought that to the forefront in tragic ways
[01:14:10] The good news is that it's making us aware of what we need to do to
[01:14:15] Craft and co-create these circles of meaning and community in whatever ways possible so that we gather and don't isolate
[01:14:24] Um between theory and practice the gap is big, but there's an aspiration here
[01:14:30] I think both in israel and here and elsewhere the invitation
[01:14:37] Is for people to figure out
[01:14:39] What of these circles of care?
[01:14:43] That one must invest in
[01:14:46] Doesn't have to be religious
[01:14:48] Right. I I was in in televieve a few weeks ago on a Friday night
[01:14:52] And I was on a rooftop with some friends and we had a Friday night dinner
[01:14:56] That as I like to have and I looked down for my from this like seventh floor thing in north televieve and
[01:15:04] Looked at all the balconies where people having what's it called?
[01:15:08] Right like Friday night meal now
[01:15:09] It's not a shabbat meal in the sense of a religious Sabbath observance and it might or it might not include the
[01:15:16] Ritual props from a glass of wine to a you know braided bread, but people come together. It's a thing
[01:15:23] And so I think that kind of thing is an important thing
[01:15:26] And whether that is reading clubs or whether that is knitting circles, whether it's people who are finding the ways to
[01:15:36] Invest in each other's well-being that tribal wisdom
[01:15:41] Of small circles within a bigger circle
[01:15:43] Is a must
[01:15:45] I would say that full abtual as a community. We realize that people coming together for
[01:15:50] Spiritual contemplation, whether that's a Friday night or yom kippu
[01:15:54] Or yom kippu that's only a very small slice of what the communal responsibility is
[01:16:00] People coming together because they're dealing with aging people coming together because they're queer
[01:16:05] And I want to talk about that people come together because they are the parents of be midst for children
[01:16:09] People are coming together because they're involved in social justice projects around refugees
[01:16:14] People are coming together for any sorts of reasons, but these small circles
[01:16:20] Within the largest circle is what creates intimacy and accountability and battles isolation and I
[01:16:27] speak for myself like I
[01:16:29] need those in my life and
[01:16:31] I think what's interesting is that people like you and like me and other people we know
[01:16:36] Serve a role in society as being the conveners
[01:16:39] Like we take the rock and we throw it into the lake and then there is a ripple
[01:16:43] And then it's our job to work with and delegate and co-create and empower other people
[01:16:49] To be the co-creators of these circles so that they go on
[01:16:53] And perpetuate themselves. So we're not the ones to always carry the here. I am hosting dinner again
[01:17:00] That gets to be exhausting. That's a burnout
[01:17:02] So there's wisdom here and doing in weaving these responsibilities of leadership of bialik
[01:17:09] Israel's
[01:17:10] famed
[01:17:11] Poet came up with this idea of onyx about way back in the 1920s or 1930s
[01:17:17] It wasn't a religious thing
[01:17:18] It was like a cultural get together on Friday night to celebrate human values and culture and art and just come together
[01:17:27] Right, so it's things like that these type of designing these moments
[01:17:31] And these opportunities for us to be together as humans
[01:17:35] And to support each other through whatever shared common denominator we have
[01:17:40] Right, I think that's really the invitation
[01:17:43] That's that's amazing. That's a good that's good advice and I think for me
[01:17:48] I may be locked into this idea of I have to find the perfect community
[01:17:52] The perfect tribe instead of just going for
[01:17:55] Let's join many different groups and see what
[01:17:59] See where I feel at home. I keep thinking this is I'm not a zen Buddhist. I'm not as
[01:18:04] I'm not at this. I'm not at that. I'm almost prejudging and searching for some sort of perfect situation
[01:18:09] Whereas I have a friend who's a successful designer
[01:18:12] Who just volunteers at the maghendavidadom, which is the the israeli red cross
[01:18:17] And he has a built-in community and also that the feeling of doing good in the world and he feels more connected
[01:18:25] He has his tribe right right right and and I think what's happening now is that we have the invitation to
[01:18:32] Maybe for always maybe for a while to be in multiple tribes
[01:18:36] With inability capacity is an issue, but know that they are
[01:18:40] One size fit all is not gonna cut it like in some way we are evolving as a species in some way
[01:18:46] By the way, my time in israel now what I've noticed is that
[01:18:50] Probably because of the extent of trauma
[01:18:53] And the spiritual thirst because judieism to a great extent is not
[01:18:58] Nourishing people's thirst for spirit and for community psychedelics
[01:19:03] And like medicine circles
[01:19:06] are profound
[01:19:09] And so many people are doing them and that is a tribal literally a tribal response to human isolation
[01:19:15] And you're having these like circles growing and growing in the same way that through around vipassana and around through zen and around
[01:19:23] Through various jewish spiritual practices and others people are finding their small tribes where they
[01:19:30] Can grow as individuals and also witness each other's being
[01:19:35] Interesting
[01:19:35] So I have one final question for you, which is our standard closing question
[01:19:39] Where I actually quote from al-an-de-boton
[01:19:42] I cite his TED talk where he talks about the difference between a lecture and a sermon
[01:19:47] And he says the lecture is there to give you a little bit of information. That's the kind of secular
[01:19:51] Version and a sermon is there to change your life
[01:19:55] And so
[01:19:57] I
[01:19:58] am going to tailor this to my audience where let's assume that they are
[01:20:03] by and large
[01:20:05] completely secular
[01:20:07] Never found their way into any sort of religion any sort of spiritual practice might be open to it
[01:20:13] But what is a sermon that you can give a person like that one thing that could really change your life
[01:20:20] Go spend 10 minutes
[01:20:23] Without your phone
[01:20:26] Sitting
[01:20:28] Against a tree
[01:20:30] Sitting under a tree look at the tree feel the tree listen to the tree
[01:20:35] The oldest image in our semitic tradition of the divine is that of a tree
[01:20:40] She was cut down by patriarchy
[01:20:43] By men who sought to replace the god of here and now
[01:20:48] With a god of up there
[01:20:50] And there is something about the tree that is our partner in
[01:20:55] oxygen and life
[01:20:57] That is the metaphor for so many of our
[01:21:01] growth
[01:21:03] paradigms
[01:21:04] that is simply and silently
[01:21:08] Inviting us to rediscover a very deep imminent sense of being in the world
[01:21:15] From our roots to our trunk to our branches to
[01:21:19] every single
[01:21:21] piece of our leaves dropping and growing again. I would say the invitation for
[01:21:27] Reclaiming our divinity and our humanity
[01:21:31] Can probably benefit from some time
[01:21:34] Spent with a tree
[01:21:36] Thank you very much. Hi. It was a pleasure
[01:21:40] Thank you so much for the invitation and I hope we continue these
[01:21:43] conversations and ideally in person under a tree
[01:21:50] All right, that's it for today
[01:21:54] If you enjoyed the podcast and would like to support it
[01:21:57] Please consider writing a five star review in apple's podcast app or wherever you're listening
[01:22:02] It helps many more people discover the podcast and also makes us feel good
[01:22:07] Current support for the podcast comes from my own design company remake labs
[01:22:13] We run design sprints all over the world
[01:22:16] And our goal is to improve outcomes whether in business or
[01:22:21] various organizations through repeated and rapid design interventions
[01:22:26] Now until next time be well everyone
[01:22:29] See you next week on remake